hello im new and I need your help (page 2)

PaNiCAtTaCk

Dear *******,

As of May 8, 2004 I am 82 and in the year 2000 I suffered what was diagnosed as a moderate stroke, no paralysis resulted but it left me tired and with a reduced energy level. So I am not able to keep up with correspondence as I would like. Crisis of Conscience is now in 12 languages, which brings in more mail. My wife?s health has undergone some serious problems as well, requiring the giving of time in that direction. Cynthia underwent a heart catheterization process which revealed six blockages in her heart. The doctors wanted to do bypass surgery but she opted not to do so. She had heard of chelation therapy and started that some weeks ago. I had a CT scan of my carotid arteries. I knew the right artery was completely blocked and the scan showed growing occlusion in the left artery. I have also started chelation therapy. The popular use of the term "golden years" certainly does not describe what older age really brings. Ecclesiastes Chapter 12 gives a realistic picture.

Many who write have expressed recognition that bitterness and anger only take away credibility from any discussion of the Witnesses. Unfortunately a large portion of the books and material put out by ?ex-JW? sources on the subject are almost entirely negative.

I can sympathize with the adjustment you and others face. One invests so much as regards relationships and the seemingly unavoidable loss of many of these is painful. As you evidently recognize, simply withdrawing from a system that one has found to be seriously flawed is not a solution in itself. It is what one does thereafter that determines whether there has been progress and benefit or not. It is also true that any transition?even if only one in outlook?can require not only time but also mental and emotional adjustments. Haste is obviously not advisable as it often only leads to new problems or to new errors. There is always need to exercise patience, trusting in God?s help and direction.?Proverbs 19:2.

It seems, however, that we can often learn as much from the ?unpleasant? experiences of life as we can from the pleasurable ones?perhaps more that is of lasting value. While separation from a large organization and former associates unquestionably produces a degree of loneliness, even that can have its beneficial aspects. It can bring home to us more than ever before the need for full reliance on our heavenly Father, that only in Him have we genuine security and the confidence of his care. It is no longer a case of flowing along with the stream but of developing a personal inner strength, gained through faith, of growing up so as to no longer be children but grown men and women, a growth achieved through our growth in love for God?s Son and the way of life he exemplified. (Ephesians 4:13-16) I don?t view my past experience as all loss, nor feel that I learned nothing from it. I find great comfort in the words of Paul at Romans 8:28 (the New World Translation changes the meaning of this text by inserting the word ?his? in the expression ?all his works? but this is not the way the original Greek text reads). According to a number of translations, Paul states:

>
>> We know that by turning everything to their good God cooperates with all
>> those who love him.?Jerusalem Bible translation.

Not just in ?his works? but in ?all things? or in ?everything? God is able to turn any circumstance?however painful or, in some cases, even tragic?to the good of those who love him. At the time we may well find this difficult to believe but if we turn to him in full faith and allow him to do so, he can and will cause that to be the result. He can make us the better person for having had the experience, enrich us in spite of the sorrow we may undergo. Time will demonstrate this to be so and that hope can give us courage to continue on, trusting in his love.

You will find that many of what are called ?ex-JW ministries, ? have often simply exchanged their previous beliefs for what is known as orthodoxy. Orthodoxy undoubtedly contains its measure of what is sound. But it also contains elements that are the result of imposition of religious authority, rather than belief clearly set forth in Scripture. It is difficult, for example, to find any reputable reference work that does not acknowledge the post-Biblical origin of the trinity doctrine. I feel that the main problem with the trinity doctrine is the dogmatism and judgmentalism that customarily accompanies it. That to me is but another evidence of the fragility of its foundation. Were it clearly taught in Scripture, there would be no need for authoritarian imposition of the teaching and heavy pressure to submit to it.

So many former Witnesses are at a disadvantage when pressured by others to conform to views these have adopted. Dogmatic assertions from sources that claim to base their arguments on knowledge of Biblical Greek often awe former Witnesses?even as they were previously awed by claims of a similar nature from the Watch Tower organization. So many points could be clarified if people were simply to read the same text in a variety of translations. They would then at least see that where translation is concerned, dogmatism is greater evidence of ignorance than of learning. I find this to be the case with many who adopt the Trinity doctrine.

Paul stressed that knowledge has merit only when it is expressive of, and productive of, love, that while knowledge often puffs up, love builds up. Human language, remarkable though it is, is limited to expressing what relates to the human sphere. It could never adequately be used to describe in detail and fullness things of the spirit realm, such as the exact nature of God, the process whereby He could beget a Son, the relationship resulting from such begettal, and similar matters. At the very least, it would take the language of angels, themselves spirit persons, to do this. Yet Paul says, ?If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.??1 Corinthians 8:1; 13:1-3.

When I listen to some harp on a particular doctrine which professes to express in specific terms things which the Scriptures state in general terms, to set out explicitly things on which the Scriptures are not explicit, and define what the Scriptures leave undefined, I ask myself how much love this shows, what loving benefit they think results from this, how it could possibly be of comparable benefit to discussing something that is presented straightforwardly and unambiguously in Scripture and the appreciation of which would have real meaning and benefit in the person?s life. I?m afraid much of what many hear carries echoes of the noisy gong and clashing cymbal.

It reminds me of a statement found in the book The Myth of Certainty, in which university professor Daniel Taylor writes:

>> The primary goal of all institutions and subcultures is self-preservation.
>> Preserving the faith is central to God?s plan for human history; preserving
>> particular religious institutions is not. Do not expect those who run the
>> institutions to be sensitive to the difference. God needs no particular
>> person, church, denomination, creed or organization to accomplish his
>> purpose.
>> He will make use of those, in all their diversity, who are ready to be used,
>> but will leave to themselves those who labor for their own ends.
>>
>> Nonetheless, questioning the institutions is synonymous, for many, with
>> attacking God?something not long to be tolerated. Supposedly they are
>> protecting God . . . Actually, they are protecting themselves, their view of
>> the world, and their sense of security. The religious institution has given
>> them meaning, a sense of purpose, and, in some cases, careers. Anyone
>> perceived as a threat to these things is a threat indeed.
>>
>> This threat is often met, or suppressed even before it arises, with power. .
>> .
>> . Institutions express their power most clearly by enunciating, interpreting
>> and enforcing the rules of the subculture.

Having seen the truth of this in the Witness religion and its organization and creed, we should not nearsightedly fail to realize how equally true it is in the larger religious field.

As regards association and fellowship, I recognize the dilemma some face. But I do feel that as time goes on one can find others whose association and companionship can be healthful and upbuilding, whether among former Witnesses or others. In one?s daily course of life one meets a variety of people and over a period of time may find at least some whose association is healthful and upbuilding. We get together with others for Bible discussion and though our group is quite small we find it satisfying. Naturally there is a certain benefit to similarity of background, but it doesn?t seem as if this should be a major goal. I personally have no interest in affiliating with a denomination. Some have expressed that most denominations have more in common than the points on which they disagree, which has some truth in it. Yet they still prefer to remain as separate denominations and affiliation with any of them does have at least some divisive effect, since one is expected to uphold and favor the growth and distinctive teachings of the denomination involved.

In a recent letter from Canada a brother writes:

>>> I have started witnessing informally to people who have Bible questions or
>>> when I see it is an appropriate time to witness. I offer a free discussion
>>> on the Bible, its theme concerning Jesus and the Kingdom, the main divisions
>>> and
>>> how to study it to profit personally. No obligations, no church, no
>>> religion, just a Bible discussion. I do not associate with any group and
>>> do not feel
>>> the need to really. I also do not give personal opinions wherever the
>>> Scriptures are not clear or are a decision of conscience. However, I do
>>> feel
>>> the need to let folks know that the Bible's way is the only way to live and
>>> freedom, true freedom, comes through knowing Jesus Christ. On occasion I
>>> see
>>> myself saying things that must be verified for the correct understanding,
>>> but
>>> I at least feel I know the basics to help someone profit from a personal
>>> study of the Bible. It takes a long time to get out of the woods, and I
>>> sometimes
>>> ask myself if total eradication of WT influence is possible. When it has
>>> been a part of your adult life for so long, you still find yourself thinking
>>> a
>>> certain way and then realize it is learned thoughts, not logically thought
>>> out sometimes. There are some things you want to hold on to of course, but
>>> their
>>> programming gets in the way more often than you would like to believe.

On Bible translations, I find it good to refer to more than one on any crucial point. Generally, for daily use I find the New Revised Standard Version generally good, but there are a number of others that are equally so.

I appreciate the kindly feeling you have toward Jehovah?s Witnesses. They are, after all, sincere in their beliefs in much the same manner as persons of other denominations. The concept of being the one, true people of God, does, of course, create a false sense of superiority and affects negatively their attitude toward others. I can understand the sense of frustration you may feel in your efforts to discuss points of difference with your mate. As to helping Witnesses, there is no simple formula for aiding them to open their eyes and their minds to reason on matters. While initially they are impressed with the importance of Bible study and learning the truth from the Scriptures, as time goes on a far greater emphasis is placed on being directed by ?the organization.? As you recognize, loyalty to ?the organization? becomes paramount, as it is presented as the one and only ?channel? used by God and Christ to reveal truth to all of God?s servants throughout the earth. For that reason a Witness soon becomes less and less concerned about the validity of an argument or the strength of Scriptural evidence presented. All that really matters is that ?the organization? has presented it and since it is God?s channel then what it presents may be accepted as right, in fact should be accepted as right.

There is no question, then, as to which holds primacy with the Witnesses, the Bible or the ?organization.? They are subjected to a steady flow of indoctrination which stresses that they cannot hope to gain salvation unless they are associated with, and submissive to, ?God?s organization,? that is, the organization of Jehovah?s Witnesses. Thus the ?organization? becomes, to all intents and purposes, a mediator between humans and God and Christ--contrary to the Scriptural teaching that there is but one Mediator. (1 Timothy 2:5) They thereby infringe on Jesus? position as ?the way, the truth and the life.? (John 14:6) More than all the errors of an interpretative nature or of a predictive or chronological nature, it is this self-assuming, immodest spirit that is perhaps most disturbing. It is by this means that persons eventually are willing to give up their right to think for themselves and become mere accepters of what is taught.

As stated, I believe this usurpation of the role of Christ and of God?s holy Spirit is the most serious error. It is not however something one can resort to as a sort of easy means of convincing another. There are no magical means (a ?knockout punch? type of approach) for doing that.

When we consider Jesus? words, ?I am the way, the truth and the life,? it becomes clear that it is our relationship with him, not with some organized system, that is paramount. The Watch Tower organization professes acceptance of his statement. In effect, however, they say, ?True, he is the way?but we are the way to him and you cannot come into relationship with him except through us; true, he is the truth?but you cannot learn the truth except through us as his channel; and, true, he is the life?but you will never gain life unless you become a member of our organization, submissive to our direction.? Essentially, they, like some other religions, interpose themselves between Christ and humans in an intermediary capacity and arrogate to themselves what actually belongs only to him.

If we focus more on building up people?s faith in God?s love and his care for all who love him, we can usually accomplish more than by mere negative points. In the parable of the good Samaritan, Jesus brought in the person of a man of a different religious viewpoint from that of the Jews to illustrate his point of genuine love of neighbor. (Luke 10:29-37) The Watch Tower Society points to the nation of Israel as being ?God?s organization? at the time. If one took that position, then the priest and the Levite in the parable were, in effect, representatives of such ?organization.? Yet their course is not the one set forth as exemplary. They were bad examples. It was a person outside that ?organization? who set the right example and who merited commendation by God?s Son.

I believe that if one is to help them it must be done in a disinterested way. That is to say, one cannot seek to help them free themselves from domination by such organization simply so that they will then join some other organization--the one to which the person trying to help them belongs himself.

With regard to any of your associates? or relatives? reading Crisis of Conscience, you have perhaps already found that a direct approach often doesn?t work?unless the person is already experiencing questions about the organization. As Carl Olof Jonsson has pointed out, Witnesses have a ?fortress mentality? and anything that sounds negative to them causes them to withdraw quickly within the walls of their place of security. Questions, if they are made in a non-threatening way sometimes can help As for the book Crisis of Conscience, what might succeed with some is to ask them for help in assessing the validity of the information, perhaps appealing to their longer experience as a Witness, so that they could contribute their knowledge to a clearer assessment, even point out errors if they find them. By remaining noncommittal yourself as to the book?s validy, there may not be the same sense of ?threat? generally felt.

Your options, in the end, are not many. Until someone?s mind is open to consider evidence there is little anyone else can do. Witnesses, like other persons who have undergone lengthy indoctrination, often, even generally, need to arrive, on their own, at some point that makes them open to alternative information. Until that happens?perhaps as the result of some disillusioning experience, seeing the effects of authoritarianism (either toward themselves or toward others) or an awakening to inconsistencies in teachings or policies?one is virtually talking to a stone wall. There is surely no rigid rule, however, and one can only do what the circumstances and God?s spirit seem to indicate. (James 1:5; 3:17, 18) Peter?s counsel to wives with unbelieving husbands is just as applicable to any of us and to so many other situations in life?namely to have confidence that conduct and way of life can often give far more effective testimony than mere words, and often will eventually open the way for words.?1 Peter 3:1, 2. I can only voice the conviction, then, that the fruitage of God?s spirit can accomplish much where mere argumentation, or argumentation alone, might meet with a negative reception. Evidence of love, joy, calmness, patience are a powerful testimony that can weigh more heavily than words and may in time open the way for the words and supporting evidence to follow.

[deleted].

I hope that things may go well for you and your wife, and wish you God?s guidance, comfort and strength as you face up to life's problems.

Sincere regards,

Ray

PaNiCAtTaCk

My wife is supportive and she always listens when I talk. Sometimes after I go on and on she has teared up and looks scared. I know that I have hurt my faith and I fear I have hurt hers also. She needs all her family and friends in the truth and I dont want her to lose them. I feel that I am dragging her down because shes not strong enough to be zealous on her own.

Brummie

Panic, the guilt you are carrying is a Watchtower product. You should not feel guilty for having a crisis. They have instilled guilt into you, if they were not so condemning it wouldnt be such a big issue to ask the questions you have asked.

Sorry, I didnt know Ray had an email address, I was sure he didnt, learn something new everyday huh.

NewLight2

Welcome to JWD, PaNiCAtTaCk
Next time you post, you will need to 'check' the little box at the bottom of the post area.
It says:
Automatic Cr/Lf
Checking this area will make your post have paragraphs if you have typed them in using the 'enter key'
. Also it is considered "shouting" when you use the 'CAPS LOCKS KEY'.
But that being said again I want to extend a big welcome to you.
You might want to check out these web pages:

Jehovah's Witnesses: A Critical Analysis

These two contain many links to important information regarding the Watchtower Society.

NewLight2's Links Page

Johannes Greber's Home Page

gypsywildone

I'm just sorry you're going through such a hard time. Ease up on yourself, the answers will come. You are young, you have your entire life ahead of you to live. Mr. Franz is very kind, isn't he? I have corresponded with him before also.

coldfish

Hi welcome to this board. I don't post much but usually lurk in the background just reading :)

I'm replying because you sound like such a genuine person in search of the truth. I presume you've read Crisis on Conscience if you've been emailing R Franz?

It can be a scary thought to leave an institution you've known all your life, I too was raised a JW and left a bit over a year ago. When I look back I can see JW doctrine and way of worship etc has influenced my personality immensely and its not the sort of thing you can just walk away from overnight and completely forget about. It takes time but you can get free from the WT grip on your thinking.

A really great site is www.commentarypress.com that has books by R Franz and essays by various people.

An essay I was reading yesterday was very helpful to me.. What Can I Do?

http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-whatcanido.html

and also on on Personal Relationship with God and Christ

http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-personalrel.html

After reading these essays and praying for direction, you will see that loyalty to Jehovah isn't dependent on any human organisation. Its a hard concept for a lifelong witness to comprehend, but when you do realise the full meaning of Christianity and the power of the ransom you will feel so spiritually free and I believe ones relationship with God deepens when you don't rely on an organisation to think for you.

JW aren't perfect, nor are most churches. But if you look with an open mind you can find genuine loving Christians in all churches and really see the power of God working in the churches.

All the best

Debbie

gdt

Dear brother,

You do not need any of us to suggest what you should do. Surely Ray's remarks sum up life beautifully, and I notice his remarks re the trinity for example, he and I talked that matter over when I was disfellowshipped years ago (nearly 20) and he realises that many have turned away from the organization and gone to - what? Churches believing the trinity!! I am sure Ray for one would not want that for you.

If it were put to Ray that he had to join a 'church' or a 'brotherhood', what do you think he would do? And yet, please accept that YOU alone are to answer to God and Jesus for what you do. I have personally gone through the ups and downs, but still strongly accept the brotherhood simply because there is NO other....just ask yourself how much unity and faith and loving brotherhood there is in racialism; divisive voting; nationalism; warfare for opposing countries; 'obeying the command to 'go therefore and make disciples' for Jesus, not any organization; and dear brother I could go on and on.

Please also think of the fact that the early Christians were still a brotherhood, but were so bad that every page of scripture counsels them to do better; the prophecy of Jesus and his judgments good and bad in Rev.1-3 were still of His congregation; so you see the Society is not better or worse than those of Christ's summary. The early congregations fled to the mountains and survived, but not by separating from each other doing their own thing. One faith, one Lord, one baptism...etc. Still as true today, so please stand on your own two feet, get any stumbling blocks out and over, go make disciples as you were told and dedicated yourself to do, and you won't be feeling so lousy as you describe.

On this board, there seems to be many very nice people, many who have become atheists, political, etc etc, but all totally divided between themselves except to condemn certain things either wrong or perceived to be wrong by elders or the Society..

Your choice. My 50 years in the 'truth' listening to all the pros and cons, have still assured me to keep on associating with the brotherhood to fulfil Isa.2:2-4 etc etc etc, you know the scriptures!!

If I can be of help please communicate, pm or email if you wish; some here would not support your staying with the 'one flock' and would be happy for you to 'do your own thing' But over to you,

I do send you deepest thoughts and respect, and thanks too for sharing Ray's thoughts, very nice,

Geoff. gdt.

SixofNine

If you can read CofC and the chapter on blood in ISOCF, and yet still believe that the JW organization has a connection to God, you don't need our help, you need professional therapy.

Big Tex

Panic, it is generally not considered to be good "netiquette" to post any correspondence that references private individuals. Therefore, I have taken the liberty of deleting such personal information from your copy of Ray's correspondence with you.

Ray is very considerate about responding to any correspondence with him. My wife and I have exchanged several such correspondences, so receiving such a response is (by itself) not unsual. However, there are those that would use such generosity against him (and those he corresponds with). So an effort is made to ensure privacy and reasonable protection.

Be well.

outnfree

Panic,

While BigTex apparently deleted personal information from Mr. Franz' correspondence to you, I am worried that by including the text of your friend's e-mail to you (the one in ALL CAPS), you are setting yourself up for disfellowshipping. This brother seems to be aware that you frequent discussion boards that are not necessarily favorable to the Watchtower organization. The organization monitors this sight. It may be that they need do nothing more than match a copy of his e-mail obtained from him to your post here on JWD in order to convene a judicial committee. I would suggest removing the exact text and paraphrasing the Brother's e-mail so that those who read this thread and wish to help you can still respond, but you will be more difficult to trace.

Just my $ .02.

Welcome to the Board.

hello im new and I need your help

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