23 yr old female teacher arrested for sex with 14 yr. old boys

by wednesday 189 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

  • amac
    amac

    Lady Lee - everything you posted earlier could be applied as opinion to ALL teenage sex. I agree that teenage sex should be discouraged for some of the reasons you stated. But I don't think it makes this crime any worse than, at best, statutory rape.

    Here's an interesting point to discuss...

    Statutory Rape is any carnal knowledge of a female under the age of consent, whether or not the female was a willing participant. HOWEVER, only some states include males under the age of consent in their definition of statutory rape. So in many states, what this lady did was legal.

  • Lady Lee
    Lady Lee

    David Finkelhor a leading expert on child sexual abuse has the following to say about the issue of consent.

    The Issue of Consent

    The ethical dimension of the problem can be approached through the issue of consent. Consent is one of the key notions around which we organize the ethics of our social interactions. As a society, we are moving toward a sexual ethic that holds that sex of all sorts between consenting persons should be permitted, but sex in situations where a person does not consent should be considered as illegal and taboo. [...] Sex between adults and children can be condemned for the same reason.

    But don't many children "consent" to sex acts with adults? It is true that sex between adults and children commonly is much less coercive than rape because, in many cases, children appear to consent passively or even cooperate. If we say that sex id "Okay" if consent is present, doesn't this legitimate much adult-child sex?

    The key argument we make is that children are incapable of truly consenting to sex with adults because they are children. For this reason, sex between an adult and a child cannot be sanctioned under our moral standard, which requires that consent be given. However, to make this statement, a more detailed discussion of consent is necessary.

    For consent truly to occur, two conditions must prevail. A person must know what it is that he or she is consenting to and must have true freedom to say yes or no.

    Can children fulfill these conditions in relation to sex with adults? It is fairly evident that they cannot. For one thing, children lack the information necessary to make an "informed" decision about the matter. They are ignorant about sex and sexual relationships. It is not only that they may be unfamiliar with the mechanics of sex and reproduction. More important, they are generally unaware of the social meanings of sexuality. For example, they are unlikely to be aware of the rules and regulations surrounding sexual intimacy - what it is supposed to signify. They are uninformed and inexperienced about what criteria to use in judjing the acceptability of a sexual partner. They do not know much about the "natural history" of a sexual relationship - what course it will take. And finally, children have little way of knowing how other people are likely to react to the experience they are about to undertake - what likely consequences it will have for them in the future.

    Children may know that they like the adult, that the physical sensations feel good, and on this basis may make a choise. But they lack the knowledge the adult has about sex and about what they are undertaking. This "ignorance" stems from the very fact of being a child and inexperienced. In this sense, a child cannot give informed consent to sex with an adult.

    For another thing, a child does not have the freedom to say yes or no. This is true in a legal sense and also in a psychological sense. In a legal sense, a child is under the authority of an adult and has no free will. In a more important psychological sense, children have a hard time saying "no" to adults, who control all kinds of resources that are essential to them. Food, money, freedom all lie in adults hands. In this sense, the child is like the prisoner who volunteers to be a research subject. The child has no freedom in which to consider the choise.

    This lack of freedom is especially true when the adult propositioning the child is a parent or a relative or another important figure in the child's life, as is so often the case. Most of what we see as "consensual" behavior among children is a response to the powerful incentives and authority that such adults hold. As one of my interviewees said, "He was my uncle. He told me what to do and I obeyed. I was taught to obey adults." Thus a child cannot consent, in a moral sense, to sex with an adult because a child is not truly free to say no.

    [...]

    A somewhat analogous situation, I think, is that of sex between therapists and patients. Many patients may benefit from sex with their therapist, but the argument that such sex is wrong does not hinge on the positive or negative outcome that results. Rather it lies in the fundamental assymmetry of the relationship. A patient, I would argue, cannot freely consent to sex with a therapist. The main consideration here is that, in the context of a therapeutic relationship, a patient is not really free to say yes or no. Even if the patient liked it, a moral wrong would have been committed.

    [...] Is a secretary being propositioned by her boss truly free to refuse? In many cases, no. Full consent is not present in all adult-adult encounters. Some adults probably deserve protection along with children. However, the greater potential access that adults have to both knowledge and freedom puts them in a different category. Children constitute a clearly identifiable class where these conditions do not prevail; they deserve special protection.

    Second, some people argue that the notion of "inability to consent" involves an oppressive type of paternalism. Most of the new champions of eliminating so-called "age-of-consent laws" have made their arguments on behalf of the "rights of children," such as the right of children to express themselves sexually and choose whomever they wish for sexual partners (O'Carroll, 1980; Presland, 1981). It may be true that children are opressed by arbitrary adult-imposed controls. But it seems extremely doubtful that any large group of children are complaining that they are not "allowed" to engage in sex with adults. If polled, we suspect children would vote for better protection against adult sexual overtures, not more "freedom."

    These self-proclaimed children's liberationists tend to minimize two parts of the problem. They do not truly believe that adults are vastly more powerful than children. They think, for example, that the fact that the adult badly wants the child to like him, or the fact that the child's disclosure culd put the adult in jail, really equalizes the power imbalance that exists between an adult and a child. They also do not acknowledge the enormous manipulativeness and callous lack of regard for children's well-being that characterize the behavior of many persons who try to seduce children. Most children are not capable of protecting their own interests in the face of this power and this guile (Gay Left Collective, 1981). There is nothing wrong with paternalism where it provides children with protection they need and cannot give themselves.

    Child Sexual Abuse - Chapter 2: Sexual Abuse as a Moral Problem

    David Finkelhor

    The Free Press, New York, pp.14-22, 1984
  • SheilaM
    SheilaM

    Just spoke with my son....He called the teacher pathetic....He asked "Is she hot" "What is the WRONG WITH HER" He feels that what she did is WRONG ..this is from a 19 year old.

    I know that my boyfriend was 19 almost 20, when I was 16 and consensual or not many times age does have power and they are able to push you into things you aren't really wanting to do.

    For those that thinks sex is always wonderful and great your wrong.....that is why so many children that are taken advantage of are suicidal. Being used especially at a young age can scar that young person.............

    Sixy: Your wrong PERIOD, adults are here to protect children (usually) it is not what we say to the children that scar them it is the after effects of realizing that this person they "loved" or thought they did was using them. I wish some adults had stepped in when I was in school and told me how someone 19 or 20 is in a position of control....no one did though and believe me I have paid the price.

  • Lady Lee
    Lady Lee
    Lady Lee - everything you posted earlier could be applied as opinion to ALL teenage sex. I agree that teenage sex should be discouraged for some of the reasons you stated. But I don't think it makes this crime any worse than, at best, statutory rape.

    Except that when both parties are teens there is (usually) no power imbalance as there is with an adult and a teen

    Statutory Rape is any carnal knowledge of a female under the age of consent, whether or not the female was a willing participant. HOWEVER, only some states include males under the age of consent in their definition of statutory rape. So in many states, what this lady did was legal.

    Just because the law isn't up to par doesn't make it right. The first cases of child physical abuse were reported under laws against cruelty to animals since there were no laws prohibiting cruelty to children. Society is often not up to date on the damage done in such situations.

    Has anyone been listening to the stories here and in the media of males being abused by the adults around them! Good lord we have enough male survivors here who have told their stories that we should be able to see the difference between fantasy and reality

  • Descender
    Descender

    So really, is this all about legalities or morals or something else completely? Obviously this is wrong in the United States because it's illegal for a 23 year old to have consentual sex with a 14 year old, but what if it wasn't illegal, then would it be wrong? What if this had taken place in a country that it wasn't illegal because the age of consent was 14, would it be wrong then? Maybe morally wrong, but if it wasn't lawfully wrong and the participating parties obviously didn't have high morals anyway, what would be the argument other than any other teenage relationship where pregnancy and STD's are a factor.

    So I guess my question is: What if the same action that is illegal in one country isn't illegal in another, would the action still be wrong? If so, what's makes it wrong? What's makes it instantly ok in some countries to have sex the day you turn 14, or 16, or 18, when the day before it wasn't alright? When do you suddenly reach the right maturity to consent? Is it just the legal issues guiding this, or something more?

  • jwbot
    jwbot

    Descenter: I think for me, it is a question of ethics. To me, an adult in the position of power should not have sex with a minor because it is an unhealthy relationship for the teenager...there is an obvious inequality in that kind of relationship that leads to abuse and manipulation and intimidation. An adult that would engage in that type of relationship is not looking for love (convinced of this they may be).

  • Fleur
    Fleur

    please be aware that i read up thru page 5 of this thread before replying, so i may be repeating what someone else said later, i don't know. wanted to throw my thoughts in there before i forget what they are:

    "LA u may have offended French, but u are not wrong. I have been in therapy for years and worked in psych area, and women do have rape fantasy. Not of rape that involves being actually brutalized rape, but of being forced to have sex. so perhaps forced sex is a better way to put it. Therapists say it a way of not assuming the blame for sex-somone forced u. Also, it makes some women aroused. "

    i just have to respond to this...THIS woman has never had a rape fantasy, period. being subdued or restrained or 'forced' does NOT appeal to me at all. and i'm sorry but i find "being forced to have sex" the same thing as being "brutalized rape." so i don't believe, no matter what your personal experience in therapy is, that all, or dare is say it, even MOST women have this fantasy.

    someone asked why god made people to be functioning sexually so young, well how the hell should i know? id on't think it/he/she did cause i don't believe in the big Sky daddy. i do know this: in parts of the world where girls are forced to have sex at young ages and get impregnated by grown men, they are DYING or being RUINED FOR LIFE by being torn in two by the babies! Don't believe me? check this URL, be warned it is NOT pretty! http://www.fistulahospital.org/

    there is a doctor who has worked for years at a tiny hospital trying to literally sew these girls back together after their bodies are rent nearly in two by stillborn babies because they are TOO SMALL TO BIRTH THEM. so to me, NO loving god would put a young girl in that position, period. it should not be able to happen.

    to me with this issue, i think that if the teacher had been UGLY that people would be saying "shame on her! how dare she do that!" just because she happens to be blonde and buxum i think that no jury of men will convict her. hell, even the women might go easy on her. HER LOOKS do NOT make what she did right!

    minors cannot give consent, period. whether he's scarred for life, doesn't matter to me one bit.

    she should go to jail, maximum sentence. let her watch her beauty fade as she works in prison and rots there for what she's done.

    whether or not it was 'rape', it was against the law, and she should go to prison just as she would if she'd been a MALE teacher and it was a female student!

    with the few exceptions, its really disappointing how this thread seems to be drawn down along gender lines. i guess i will never really understand most men, not if i live to be 100. I just don't get the way they think.

    fleur

  • wednesday
    wednesday
    Is it just the legal issues guiding this, or something m

    That is a very good question. Genreally speaking most people do not have to be told not to murder-people know that is wrong. Same with stealing, and other things. Even if there were no laws, we would know this was wrong. I would also think that most people would "know" having sex with a child is wrong. But not everyone has a normal functioning conscience and so we have to have laws for society to function. The law has to decide when u can give consent , as an adult for sex. In the states, for the most part, it is 18.

    Remember as JWS,we were told that joseph "knew adultry was wrong even though they did not have the ten commandments as of yet?

    This is an excellent question and would love to hear more discussion of this.

    as to the previous writer, sorry the rape fantasy statement offneded u, but u will have to take it up with the psychologists. And remember, just b/c a person fantasies about somethng, does not mean they would actually do it. lots of people have many and varid sexual fantasies, and they rarely actully do they things they fantasize about. my doc says 'fantasies are for free". I accept what u say-u have never had a rape fantasy, fine but apparently a number of women do. that does not mean the woman wants to actually be raped. this thread was not actually about the idea of the child being raped anyhow.

    Sexual contact with a child is just plain wrong, no matter how it occurs.

  • L_A_Big_Dawg
    L_A_Big_Dawg

    Let me say something. As the father of a 14 year old boy, I would not be high-fiving my son and telling him what a stud he is for banging a 23 year old school teacher. I would be just as p*$$ed off at that, than as if some pervert (male or female) violated my 10 year old daughter. Any adult that takes advantage of a child, be they male or female, does not deserve to see the light of another day on this earth!

    The fact is that kids today grow up much too fast. My kids know more about certain subjects than I did at their respective ages. One could say that is because I was raised JW and they are not, but I think for a JW I had a more cosmopolitan view of life than most of my JW contemporaries. However, I digress, my point is simply that I don't hold a double standard. A female predator is just a sculpable as a male preditor. I thank that a female predator is more culpable, since she is basically overriding the motronly instinct, and violating the child.

    LABD, of the very p#$$ed off dad, class

  • Fleur
    Fleur

    "my doc says 'fantasies are for free".

    just another list of quotes to add to my ever growing list of why i hate therapists.

    fantasies are free i suppose you could say that, JUST as long as no one acts on them to the detriment of others. then, they certainly are not free. and NOT all fantasies people have are normal, sorry.

    as to the forced submission thing, hey, what you fantasize about is your business.

    speaking only for myself i have never had a rape fantasy and personally think that it's a big misnomer that 'most' women do. but i will leave that discussion here because that is not what this thread is about. if you have a problem with me taking issue with your statement...well, sorry. but it was your statement, not a therapist who was here saying it. that is why i took issue with you saying it people are still allowed to have an opinion here, or did that change when i wasn't looking?

    taking the same issue of fantasy and turning it to the topic at hand, I don't believe any normal person would ever fantasize about having sex with a child. Fantasies of sex with children are NOT normal and should NOT be considered "free". this teacher must have, because fantasies can, and do, lead people to act on them.

    this woman obviously thought about it before just doing it. i don't believe it just happened out of the blue one day. thought started it, and she let her body follow.

    she should be crucified. just the sight of her smug expression makes me nauseated.

    l a dawg...i'm p***** right off with you.

    discussions like this make me NUTS. i do not get how people reason.

    sounds like a hell of a lot of justification going on to me.

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