The Gospel

by UnDisfellowshipped 143 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • ellderwho

    Little toe,

    It really comes down to what does the Bible teach. Throughout scripture. Billy Graham said this "both Calvin and Arminian are DEAD" So, I like to side with what scripture teaches.

    Or a quote from Dr. J. Boice " If we can choose God, ultimately then, we will unchoose God, because it is not in our nature."

    And think about it, even when God chooses, will still have this struggle always putting extra unneeded presure on ourselves to somehow perform for God. Its really amazing, we will always try to involve ourselves in what God has already planned out. You know maybe God saw that halfway decent good deed I just did.


  • UnDisfellowshipped

    Ellderwho and Deputy Dog,

    Thank you for your replies. That does make a lot of sense.

    There is one more set of Verses that seem to show that man can choose to repent or refuse to repent, and it is Romans 2:1-10.

    Romans 2:1-10 appears to be saying that God is trying to lead people to repentance but some people refuse to repent, so they are storing up wrath for themselves at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

    I look forward to your comments about those Verses.

  • gumby

    Gee.....didn't anybody read MY stuff?


  • Swickley

    Lunatics abound.

    Good example: this post, and the crazies surrounding the court house in Alabama. Here comes the judge,and he's lost his friggin mind. Can you believe these people and the flap they're making over that granite behemoth sitting in the court house?

    I have only one prayer,,, "god, save me from your believers" -- they're all nuts


  • gumby



  • Swickley

    Gumby-- does it turn your stomach to see these people (being nice here..) all freaking out over the granite slab containing this biblical BS? These folks need to get-a-grip on reality.

    The judge has gone mad and I expect to see him foaming at the mouth soon. Next thing on his agenda (beside making a fool of himself and the Alabama Supreme Court): he'll be a full-time bible-thumpin preacher because the other Alabama Justices don't want him back on the court (yea! just get him out of the justice system!). He's already got his congregation lined up (the freaks locking hands around the granite BS), and will probably make a bundle preaching hell-fire and damnation! No doubt his mindless supporters will open their pocket books and keep him "in style."

    What is in the water in Alabama? Come to think of it, what's in the water in Texas?

    Ohimigod -- they're everywhere!

    As one Alabama citizen said (we know there is one "thinking person" over there...):

    "If the judge doesn't obey the law....then who will"???

    Good point.

  • AGuest

    May you have peace!

    I must admit, I am not "above" wishing that what you say is true, that I have no choice in the matter, and all that I do, I do because I was predestined to do it. I cannot tell you how easy that would make my life: I wouldn't have to figure out how to do my full-time job, attend law school... and still tell those with ears to hear about the good news of the Christ. Which would take priority? Well, believe it or not, the first two are easier, as I have much less humiliation associated therewith, much less stress and don't have to defend my hope a fraction of the amount. But... it is the latter that brings me greatest joy, so the other two will be worked around it.

    But, as I said, your position intrigued me. So... I did what I always do when I lack wisdom: I asked my Lord regarding the things you have written here... and whether it is indeed true that I had no choice. I will share with you his reply, which I do not doubt:

    He: "You have been chosen because of your faith, which faith, I gave to you. True, you had faith, but I gave you more, so that if you exercised that which I gave to you, you would hear my voice when I called you."

    Me: "It is true, then, that I had no choice in the matter, that it was YOUR choice to give me such faith?"

    He: "No. I gave you such faith because it was what you ASKED for. You did not ask me for riches. You did not ask me for creative talents. You did not ask me for recognition and fame. You asked for me... to know me... to have faith in me... and so the Father sent me to you. You know this."

    Me: "Yes, but based on what this one is saying, you were coming anyway, for I had been chosen even before the founding of the world. And it is written in the Bible about such choosing. According to him, I was chosen for the purpose you have used me, even before I was born. How then could my asking have played any part?"

    He: "Are you not Israel?"

    Me: "Yes, of the tribe of Jacob's son, BenJahMin."

    He: "And was not ALL of Israel chosen and set apart as a people for a special possession? Was not ALL of Israel to be a "holy nation"? And yet, all did not hear, did they? They did not hear... because their hearts were hard. I begged them to soften their hearts and return to me... but they did not choose me. And so, I did not choose them. While it is true that all of Israel WILL be saved, not all... will sit on my throne."

    Me: "But did you not KNOW that their hearts would be hard?"

    He: "Yes."

    Me: "So why hold out something to someone you KNOW is going to reject it?"

    He: "Because there is one who says that you will ALL the Father, and thereby reject me, the cornerstone. Do you recall the man, Job? What occurred with him? Did not the Father ask his Adversary, 'Have you set your heart on my servant Job, that there is no one like him in the earth, a man blameless and upright, fearing God and turning aside from what is bad?'"

    Me: "Yes, I recall."

    He: "And did not the Adversary challenge Job's loyalty?"

    Me: "Yes. But if the Father knew Job would not give up his loyalty, why even allow the challenge? According to what this one is saying here, Job had no choice and so COULDN'T have been disloyal."

    He: "You are incorrect in your thinking. For did you not hear my voice when I said to you that the false christs and false prophets exist to mislead IF POSSIBLE... EVEN the chosen ones? Your thinking removes the possibility. And with God, ALL things are possible, even that He will LET you be misled. Did not my servant Ezekiel himself prophesy this, when he said, 'If someone righteous turns BACK from his righteousness and actually does an INJUSTICE... and I MUST put a stumbling block before him... he himself will die... because YOU did not warn him, but that in case you DID warn him that such one should NOT sin, you will have delivered your own soul?"

    Me: "Yes, I recall those words."

    He: "Then, it is like the man, Judas, the son of Destruction, who PROVED himself such a son and so able to be used for the purpose of my Father's will... and the man Jonah... who chose NOT to warn Nineveh... until he was made to do so. Do you wish to become like these men, one who was loving what is bad, and the other, who had more love for himself than for his neighbor so that he disobeyed, which disobedience would have resulted in his destruction AND theirs... so that rather than obey and be exalted... he was humbled, to the saving of THEIR lives?"

    Me: "No, of course... no one WANTS to be like either of these."

    He: "Do not be too sure, for you are not knowing the heart of man as I know it."

    Me: "Yes, Lord. I am not sure I still understand, though, whether we have a choice or not. And I wish to, because for some reason it seems quite important."

    He: "It is. For it is the meek who shall inherit the earth, and not those whose hearts are hard so that their heads are like that of bulls and goats so that they must be MADE to do what is pleasing to the Father... rather than do so of their own desire. It is a choice, child, to obey or disobey. It is true that whatever my Father's will is... will be done. If He NEEDS to make one do something so that HIS will is carried out, He will. But... it does not go well with you if it must be done in this way. Your heart will harden, because He will draw me away from you.

    But remember the man Abraham, who was commanded to sacrifice his son; had the Father truly wanted such sacrifice, it would been done. He wanted... to see if Abraham would obey. And the man Abraham did obey; he was not MADE to take Isaac up, but he himself went willingly.

    I understand the flesh and its hold on your spirit. I have existed in such a vessel. However, I also under the spirit... that it, too, has a will... and if it WANTS to, can overcome and conquer much more than it does. Yet, because you have so little power, I grant you more. Why? Because you have asked me to. You asked to have your heart made over, and your prayer was heard... because it was a RIGHTEOUS request, one to benefits others as well as yourself. Why should I withhold from you the desire of your heart, particularly if such desire will lead you to closer to my Light?"

    Me: "Okay, Lord, but YOU said of us, 'You did not choose me; I chose you.' I cannot see the choice there."

    He: "By what means did I choose you? Did I not see you, as I saw Nathaniel? You are not hidden from me. I saw that you are a treasure, hidden in an earthen vessel. But what identified you as such "treasure"? Was it not your heart, which you have guarded all these years, so that it did not become hard, tarnished by hatred and hypocrisy, covered over in darkness?"

    Me: "But didn't YOU make my heart in such a way that it could BE seen? As the man has said, didn't I have NO choice in the matter, that my heart was made as such before I even came into this world?"

    He: "Yes. But it is you... who guarded it. You did not have to. You could have given yourself over... just as the man Job could have done... just as the man Judas did. Just as many others do. They do not love, because they CHOOSE not to guard what was planted in their hearts."

    Me: "But the man here, your servant also, is saying that I had no choice - what was going to be was going to be."

    He: "And why would I want those with me, who are such out of no choice of their own? Who are not with me because they WANT to be, but only because I chose them to be? Did I not love you? Did I not choose you? Why is that? Because 'all things you want men to do to YOU, you must do to them.' I have given to you what I wish to receive FROM you. Your love. I do not want you to follow me because you only wish to be fed. I do not want you to follow me because you only want to see someone raised from the dead. It is your love that had you called. For by such love, you have PROVEN that you are son of God. Had I MADE you love, the proof would have been mine... not yours, and the reply to him that taunts us... mine... not yours."

    Me: "Then why all the verses regarding us having NO choice, that we are indeed predestined to this choosing. Why exert ourselves at all? Why not just sit back and wait for the Father's will to play itself out? How are we to understand this?"

    He: "Have you entirely forgotten the caution I once laid upon you, that all the things I tell you are written, but not all of the things written are what I will tell you? Are you yet trusting in earthling man, so as to hear his voice and follow him? Or are you still looking to me as the Light that is to guide you to the face of the Most Holy One of Israel? Or are you looking to the Law... and ITS followers? Are you still trusting in what earthling man tells you is the word of God? Or have you not made up... in your mind and heart... that I am that Word? Is it now that you wish to shrink back... or will you continue to follow me? Choose for yourself."

    And so, dear Ellderwho, I have to say that I must leave you with your thinking... and your trust in the Bible... and that is fine with me. I do not judge you. However... I cannot follow you. Truly. It sounded good, quite good, actually... but... it is not my Lord's voice, as evidenced to me by the above. I have shared it with you here, just as I heard it, whether YOU hear... or refrain.

    I bid you the greatest of peace... and love... and want you to know that am not "against" you, for I will not divide the Christ for the sake of being "right". But... as I said to the leaders of the WTBTS when I parted ways with them, "I simply cannot follow you" on this. For doing so would lead me away from the voice of the Fine Shepherd, and back to the writings from which he has released me. I have been set free... to love... and to listen ONLY to him and be led ONLY by him. He has not "steered" me wrong thus far, and so I am grateful. However, listening to earthling man and their adherence to the Bible... has enslaved me more than I care to admit. I cannot go back.

    Again, I bid you peace, and I am...

    YOUR servant, as I am a servant to all those of the Household of God and those who go with them... but a slave... to Christ,


  • AGuest

    the greatest of peace to you!

    I meant to respond to this yesterday; please forgive the delay:

    Shel: I agree, it's where they dwell, but I was talking specifically of life after the demise of the physical body.

    My understanding, dear LT, is that the spirits who belong to Christ... and therefore, JAH... return to JAH. These are the spirits... of the "living"... who are raised up during the first resurrection.

    Ecclesiastes 12:7; Matthew 22:32; Luke 20:38; 1 Corinthians 15:23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; Revelation 20:4-6

    And that spirits of the "dead"... or those who DON'T belong to Christ... go to the "world" of the dead... Sheol (Hebrew) or Hades (Greek)... the "pit" or lowest part of which... is Tartarus. There is a (second) resurrection from this place - some to life, some to judgment and thus, destruction. Job asked to be concealed there for he felt that "heat" there lesser than what had been brought upon him on earth. But he had a hope for life by means of resurrection, obviously the second resurrection, as the "first" resurrection offer had not been made, yet, for Messiah, who initiated it, had not yet come.

    1 Peter 3:19; Romans 10:7; 2 Peter 2:4; Luke 8:31; Revelation 20:5, 11-15

    Lazarus, when to under the altar, the place of God's protection, Abraham's "bosom." The Rich Man, went to Sheol/Hades... a place where God's spirit... holy spirit... "living water"... does not exist; therefore, there is no "refreshment", but rather, parching. It would only take a drop of such "water" - holy spirit - a "crumb" or "portion"... would "cool the tongues" of those there; however, no such "water" is there. How do we know? Because... the spirit is life... and there is no LIFE there.

    The altar has the martyrs beneath it, hence this is the time-frame that I'm considering here.

    I am not sure of the time frame. I know that Abel was the first, and even after the Master ascended, others were martyred (i.e., Stephen, James, etc.). But I am not certain that such "martyrdom" is limited to the murder of the flesh; there are many who have been "murdered"... spiritually... for the sake of the Christ. Many who have had their families taken away, who have been medicated/committed to institutions, etc., for preaching the Christ, so that they just layed down and died. I am of the understanding, then, that more are added to those there, so that the "full number" is completed.

    If you want to take it a stage back from that and consider that we already exist in heaven or hell, I have little difficulty with that.

    While I can relate to a present existence in "Paradise"... by means of our spirit through holy spirit... I am not sure the Master would have asked the Father not to take us "out" of Hell. In addition, my understanding is that he went there himself, and spoke to those there so that SOME of them WOULD put faith in him (that is how they are ultimately resurrected to life - Rev. 20:15; 2 Peter 2:4), but where he went is not where we are. We are in the... ummmm... "neutral zone", per se... between heaven and Hell: heaven is for the spirits of the living; Hell is for the spirits of the dead - and we are not quite either, completely living OR completely dead.

    It actually concurs with some points I made on another thread, regarding spiritual life and death.

    I am not sure I've seen that thread. The flesh... is dead. Trust me. It just hasn't had such death MANIFESTED, yet. The spirit, however, can be OF the dead... or OF the living. Depends. On what? On whether one has life WITHIN oneself.

    John 6:51, 53

    The only "life"... is the spirit of God... which life now exists in Christ... who "pours out" this life, upon those who belong to him.

    John 14:6

    This is the REAL life... the everlasting. Everything else is temporary so that it is not truly alive. Not truly; it's time is marked. However, where the spirit of God is... immortal life exists. For us, those who have received such spirit... it is the BEGINNING of such life - a conception and regeneration. A seed, which is now FERTILIZED by spirit... begins to grow... until it becomes "full grown" spirit being. Currently, we are... for lack of a better term... embryos... until we are reborn... born AGAIN... into spirit beings. Once born, we can enter into the kingdom of the heavens, literally, for we will have put OFF flesh... with its blood... which can NOT enter.

    Our Lord... Christ... has already been born: he is the "Firstborn"... the HEAD of the Body. We, the Body... are awaiting a birth... and our "mother"... the spirit realm, Jerusalem Above (Galatians 4:26)... is crying out in birth pangs. True, some believe they have already been born "again," but my understanding is that that is not the case: our conception and regeneration has indeed begun, with the outpouring of holy spirit at Pentecost 30 CE. However, no one part of the Body is born before the rest, but the entire nation is "born... in one day."

    I hope this helps, dear Little Toe.

    I bid you the greatest of love and peace.

    YOUR servant and fellow slave of Christ,


  • Francois

    I have a very, very large problem with the idea of grace as "undeserved kindness". When you do something for your children that is loving do you call it or consider it "undeserved kindness" or in your mind you do feel that your children deserve all the kindness you can prepare for them?

    If you think that they don't deserve your kindness, perhaps it's true then that they DO DESERVE your unkindness and this is where child abuse starts.

    You are a child of God. Of course you deserve his kindness. I wouldn't accept any other kind of God or any other kind of kindness. And that is part of the Good News of the Kingdom.


  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    Dear undisfellowshiped

    I’m still looking for the word trying in that passage. I would be troubled, by a frustrated God, wouldn’t you? I don’t believe God tries to do anything. He just does them!

    I believe man can make some choices, and he always chooses sin, and so is responsible for it. According to scripture, he can not choose God or to do good (Romans 3:10,11).

    Remember Adam (not God) condemned mankind to hell by eating the fruit after God told him what would happen. The real mystery is, why would God choose to save some by his grace? Romans 2:4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

    Deputy Dog

Share this