The Gospel

by UnDisfellowshipped 143 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • ellderwho
    ellderwho

    Aguest,

    and still tell those with ears to hear about the good news of the Christ

    By that statement, which really relates to your theology, the question is, Do you believe that the spreading of the gospel, and humans receiving it would somehow rely upon yourself?

    You say this, I assume your pettioning Jesus; [Lord] vs [LORD]

    "I asked my Lord"
    He: "No. I gave you such faith because it was what you ASKED for. You did not ask me for riches. You did not ask me for creative talents. You did not ask me for recognition and fame. You asked for me... to know me... to have faith in me... and so the Father sent me to you. You know this."

    I give you John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me, I will never drive away.

    Also, John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.

    John 6:65 He[Jesus] went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

    But you have it that it is you who ask the Father to send Jesus to yourself. Which is kinda backwards .

    You state:

    However... I cannot follow you. Truly. It sounded good, quite good, actually... but... it is not my Lord's voice,

    I certainly am NOT trying to destroy your thinking. I am simply showing you what the bible teaches.

    listening to earthling man and their adherence to the Bible... has enslaved me more than I care to admit

    I would'nt want anyone to follow me or my thinking. It is the Logos /written word you should feed off of.

    Ive never made my line of thinking mandatory as an example to go by. Ive always used scripture which you seem to either not want to trust in its entirety or just the prophets and Psalms.

    Why do you think I keep stating "your arguement is not with me, but what I expound to you from the scriptures." Its that, plain and simple.

    I leave you in peace,

    ellderwho

  • gumby
    gumby
    I leave you in peace,

    Nu-uh.....Shelby never has any piece.(spelled peace wrong) Shelby spends endless nights trying to keep up with Spiritual Apostates such as the likes of you elderman and myself. I shall never let Shelby rest.......ever! Her commission is to go the "lost tribes of Jesus" such as myself but it's beginning to work. I have already talked with the Lord.......for only a few seconds.....and it was pretty cool. I didn't know he smoked however and that kinda bummed me out. He said he was also going to call in a few others here in his due time . He started to give me all the names of the upcoming converts but the voice faded into nothing and he left. I'm hopin he'll be back tomarrow and I'll fill ya in on the new recruits of his if he decides to tell me again.

    Gumby

  • ellderwho
    ellderwho

    undisfellow

    Romans 2:1-10 appears to be saying that God is trying to lead people to repentance but some people refuse to repent, so they are storing up wrath for themselves at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

    What makes you think that God is trying to do something and man is not letting him. Gods judgement is just and true and deserved, believer or non-believer.

    Futhermore, where is choice addressed.

    ellderwho

  • ellderwho
    ellderwho

    Grumpy, er' gumby

    Spiritual Apostates such as the likes of you elderman and myself.

    Did'nt you say:

    "Gee... didnt anybody read my stuff"

    A few pages ago?

    lol; ellderwho

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    may you have the peace... that Christ gives. John 14:27

    And before we being, I would like to respectfully ask you consider all that I have written, as well as the verses and scriptures I have included. For I have read all that you post… and looked up all that you have quoted. But the word of my Lord is that you have NOT looked up what I have quoted to you… nor have you responded to anything that I have brought up to support what I have shared with you. And thus, if you refuse to do so, then it is you who are refusing to hear… but instead leaning on your own understanding. Now, you must know… that it is your CHOICE to hear… by means of making the effort… or not to. Neither God nor Christ will make you… and while you might the dear folks here to believe that if you DON’T… that it was because God didn’t MAKE you… you would be in error… and possibly at risk of misleading these. Again, the choice… is yours.

    Now, then… you ask:

    Do you believe that the spreading of the gospel, and humans receiving it would somehow rely upon yourself?

    No, I do not. I believe that even if we did not speak what we are given... the rocks would cry out. I do not believe my receipt is DUE to myself: it is DUE... to the undeserved kindness of my Father and my Lord. Although I do not DESERVE such kindness... knowing them... and receiving their spirit... I asked... and received. It was not withheld from me. Just as the Phoenician woman asked... and received... even "crumbs". Just as Jairus asked... and received his daughter. Unlike the man Simon, who tried to BUY it, literally: it is not for sale, but a GIFT, which God grants, through Christ... to those wishing... and asking.

    That is why the Spirit and the Bride KEEP saying "Come"... to those wishing, as well as thirsting... as well as hearing.

    You say this ("I asked my Lord"), I assume your pettioning Jesus; [Lord] vs [LORD]

    Actually, no... on a few accounts:

    1. I do not "petition" my Lord, at least, not very often. I do, however, petition my Father... in the NAME of my Lord... and approach Him THROUGH my Lord. For I do not pray to my Lord... but to the Father... just as my Lord has taught me to pray. Contrastly, I SPEAK with my Lord daily... sometimes around the clock. Since he is my High Priest, I can approach him and ask him to plead my behalf with the Father, which he always does. But, I do not feel the need to implement the formality with my Lord that I do with the Father.

    If I need something, I can actually ask the Father Himself, by means of my Lord. Even when I don’t know what to ask for… for THEN… my spirit asks FOR me.

    Matthew 6:6-14; Romans 8:26

    It works in the same way as with Joseph and Pharaoh: although it was Pharaoh's grain, when his brothers wanted to feed their families, Joseph's brothers had to come to him, for he was second only to Pharaoh, and in charge of dispensing Pharaoh's grain. When they FIRST approached, Israel's sons did so in great reverence, for they did not KNOW Joseph; however, once Joseph revealed himself to them, he no longer required... them to bow down before him. Rather, HE... became as their slave and gave them all that they asked for... even of Pharaoh's grain, cattle, and more.

    Genesis 42:4-48:12

    Joseph, although having GREAT position, did not "lord it over" his brothers. In the same way, my Lord did not "lord it over us"; rather, he serves us, just as he demonstrated when he existed in the flesh... as he SHOWED us... so even as we must serve one another.

    John 13:12-15

    He that wishes to be greatest among us... must be least. My Lord, although greatest, took a slave's form... and made himself servant to his disciples... and to us... although he is our "lord" and "teacher." It is the pattern that he set... one he learned from his Father. Even though there is none HIGHER than he, BUT the Father... he is not jealous of his position: he knows who and what he is and serving us does not decrease him in any way, size, shape or form. Thus, it does not decrease us one iota to serve one another - rather, it exalts us.

    2. My Lord is not "Jesus." "Jesus"... which name in Greek is "Ieosus"... means "Je is zeus"... or "Jah... is God." However, since the Greek word "zeus" is also the NAME given to their false god, Zeus (which word means "God")... I do not feel the freedom to use it. Rather, I use the name my Lord told me himself:

    JahEshua, which is pronounced "Yah eShua"... in Hebrew... and "Joshua" in English ("Jesus" is Greek) - the "j" in Hebrew being pronounced like a "y"... and which name means "JAH... saves"...

    MischaJah , which is pronounced "meesha yah"... in Hebrew... and "mee si yah" in English... again, the "j" being pronounced like a "y" in both cases... which means "chosen" or "anointed"... "of JAH." The Greek word for "chosen" or "anointed" is "kristos"... or "christ". Thus, the "chosen people" are, in English... "christ ians"... or in Hebrew... "mischaJahim"... pronounced "mee sha yah eem".

    JAH ... is the name of the true God... (Psalm 68:4)... which is why we say, "Praise you, Jah,"... or "hallel u Jah"... pronounced (in Hebrew) "ah lell oo yah" - the "h" is silent - or (in English)... "hah lay loo yah".

    The letters of the Tetragrammaton... rendered by some as "YHWH"... by others as "YHVH"... and still others as "JHVH"... is actually:

    "JaHVeH"... which is pronounced "Yah Veh"... and means... "JAH... of Armies." There is no "JeHoVaH" - that name is false.

    I know these things because my Lord speaks to me many times in HIS "tongue"... which is an ancient form of Hebrew, sometimes with a very old form of Aramaic mixed in. I did not know this initially... because I HEAR... in my own "tongue"... English. However, it is by means of holy spirit that I can hear HIS tongue spoken... as if in my own.

    A couple of years ago I heard someone filled with holy spirit speak in this tongue, literally. I had never heard it spoken out loud... and she did not know what the translation was. As she spoke, however, it was if my ears were "opened"... and I understood everything she said. I was shocked; she was not. Not only had I never translated a tongue... I truly had believed what I was formerly taught by the WTBTS... that such things no longer occurred. My faith was "added to" that day.

    I give you John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me, I will never drive away.

    Dear one, I have also given you this "truth" - that if we draw close to the Father, He... will draw close to us... by drawing us TO the Christ. I have not disputed this "truth" one bit.

    Also, John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.

    Again, I absolutely agree: draw close to God... and He... will draw close to YOU... by means of drawing YOU... to Christ. I have spoken such truth to you. But it is WE... who must "draw close"... first.

    James 4:8

    John 6:65 He[Jesus] went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

    I have not disputed this "truth" with you, either, but have told HOW such "enabling"... begins.

    James 4:8

    But you have it that it is you who ask the Father to send Jesus to yourself. Which is kinda backwards.

    And what occurred with me is just as it was said to be: I asked, I received. I drew close; God draw close to me by drawing me to Christ. It occurred this way:

    At the time my Lord first came to me, I heard a voice. It seemed as one, but I later recognized it as two (2) voices. My name was called... and at first I ignored it. Then, one of the voices said, "Why don't you answer?" I ignored that, too. Why? Because... such a thing had never occurred before (at least, not that I remembered at that time)... and I had been taught by the WTBTS... and others... that such "voices" belong to either demons... or crazy people. So, I ignored it. But... it called again. This occurred a few times until, once, when the voice asked again, "Why don't you answer?" I decided... okay, alright, what the heck... I'll answer. Let's see what this is about.

    And so, I said, "Who is this, please?" And I heard two (2) voices: one said, "I am 'Jehovah' (He used that name, for it was what was known to me at that time. My Lord later gave me the TRUE name, which name I have given to those here)... and the other said, "I am the Christ." At that point, I made a decision NOT to listen... because I did not want to be "communicating" with demons. However, my name was called again, the incident occurred in the same manner, until I responded, "Okay, if you are 'Jehovah'... can I talk to you?" I mean, I HEARD Him... could I talk to Him?

    Immediately at that moment, one of the “presences” of voices... disappeared. I knew it was gone because I felt the void it left. But the other voice said, "No one can come to the Father, except through me." And so I asked, "And who are YOU, please?" He again said, "I am the Christ."

    So, now I am thinking, this truly is demons... but he heard the thoughts of my heart and responded. He said, "Satan can transform himself in an ANGEL of light... but he cannot transform himself into that Light. I am the Light."

    So, I asked again who it was... and why he was there... speaking to me. And he said, "The Father has sent me to you"... which flabbergasted me, so I asked WHY had the Father sent him... and he said... "because you ASKED for me." I initially started to deny this, when I was transformed in the spirit to a point in time about 3 weeks previous... in the Kingdom Hall. At that time, I knew I was at my last meeting; I don't know HOW I knew... but I did. I couldn't "hear" the speakers because the entire meeting was as if I was in a Charlie Brown cartoon: the voices seemed as the "adults" in Charlie Brown... or something like that - a "language"... that was "foreign" to me.

    Since I couldn't hear... I kept my head down and my eyes in my Bible. But... in my heart I was speaking. I was asking "Jehovah" about the Christ. It seemed to ME that if he (the Christ) had given his life for ME... that I should know him MUCH better than what the "Society" was teaching me. They just seemed to skim over him... throw him in as an afterthought; something just wasn't right. So, I saw myself asking, "Father, if it is by knowing Christ that I can know you, how can I get to know him? Please... let me know him and let me know the truth." I didn't know at the time that the WTBTS was NOT the truth, and that my Lord WAS (John 14:6)... but I KNEW I needed to know him... better. I knew I did... and so I wanted to. Whatever it took. I had NO idea that what would occur... would occur.

    So, he was correct, I had asked. So, I asked him, then, why he had come to me just because I had asked. And he said, "Because you faith... the size of a mustard seed." And for some reason, this made me feel VERY sad! I cannot describe the sadness, only that my thought was that if I had faith, where in the WORLD was everyone else... because I really didn't think I had that much... and I was CERTAIN I knew others who had more. I have since learned that they didn't/don't... for when he calls THEIR name... they don't answer. Even when he asks, "Why don't you answer?"

    John 10:1-3

    He then told me that the faith I had... the size of a mustard seed... was not mine; he had given me that. I had a BIT of faith... but it was tiny. But I has asked for faith... and he had given me a portion the size of a mustard seed... and that was all took: with that, I could hear him. So, I asked him if I could ask him questions... to which he replied that I could. I also asked him if I could tell anyone (because I remembered when he would tell people not to), and he said that I could tell anyone I wished... but that not all would have faith in what I told them. He then showed me who in my life at that time would... and who wouldn't. And he was dead on.

    I asked a TON of questions; it seemed like hours went by... and I later found out that it was only minutes, actually. Since then, I have heard more and more and more... and seen more and more and more. 99% of the time, what he tells me I can find in the Bible canon. However, he eventually told me something I found to be truthful… and profound: that not all of the scriptures have been preserved in the Bible canon… not all that is in the Bible canon is scripture (for which he took me to Luke 24)… and a good deal of what IS in the Bible canon… has been tampered with by the secretaries… scribes… whose commission it was to copy what was written.

    Jeremiah 8:8

    He said that many things have been mistranslated (words thought to mean something that they don’t)… mistransliterated (word in one language THOUGHT to mean something in another language that they don’t)… misinterpreted… and misapplied… and that many things have been removed… other things have been added.

    Revelation 22:18, 19

    When I ask him why this was, he said, “Have you not me say that ‘false prophets’ and ‘false christs’ would arise to mislead you?” I told him that I remembered hearing something like that, and he took me to Matthew 24:14, where is it recorded that he said such a thing. As I said, this was quite profound to me, as I thought… like many others… that the Bible COULDN’T be tampered with (at least, I had been TAUGHT that!) He said that it indeed had… which is why there are SO many versions, variations, and translations… which say different things and are interpreted differently.

    So, I asked him, “How am I to KNOW what is TRUTH?” And he said to me (something I know I had read, but NEVER applied in this way):

    “I… am the Truth. Come… to ME.”

    What a REVELATION!!! If I wanted to know something, all I needed do was go to HIM? But of course, I did not immediately put faith in that… of course. Remember, I only had about a “mustard seed” portion at that time. However, he “heard” the doubt of my heart when it asked, “But I thought we’re supposed to read the scriptures…” and he took me to:

    John 5:39, 40, Hebrews 12:18-25… and Proverbs 8:4-11

    And to this day, it is him that I consulted; I no longer “search the scriptures” and ONLY use them when I must for those who still need them… to HEAR and to SEE… with their FLESH… for they cannot do so, yet, with their SPIRIT, as my Lord has since taught me.

    He told me one other profound thing, that I shared with you earlier: “ALL things that I tell you… are written. But… not all that is WRITTEN… is what I will tell you.”

    When I asked about this, he again told me of the tampering… that there were writings… scripture… that were not included… and writings that are not scripture… that are. He said it was earthling man who compiled the “canon” of the Bible… at their own whim: they decided what would… and would not… be included, as well as what that which IS included would… and would not… say. Why? Because… IF earthling man HAD kept all the scriptures intact, we would not NEED the other writings… and would have heard his voice. However, they have used much of the other to mislead us… by leading us… not TO God… but AWAY from God… to THEM. He said that HE… was the only “way”… the “Door”… “narrow gate”… through which we must “enter”… in order to come before the person of God.

    Daniel 7:9

    (Oh! By the way, just so you know, neither my Lord nor my Father has hair as some of my fellow African Americans assert. True, it is “like wool”… but not like the wool still on a sheep’s back – tightly curled and matted. Rather, it is like wool that has been cleaned and carded out… just before it is ready to be spun: long… QUITE long… and combed out. True, it is course… but it is more like the hair of Middle Eastern people… long and quite wavy – heavy texture.)

    Moving on…

    You state in response to my comment:

    I certainly am NOT trying to destroy your thinking. I am simply showing you what the bible teaches.

    Yes, I absolutely understand. What I believe YOU do not understand, however, is that I do not look to the Bible as my “teacher”. Rather, I have the Holy Spirit, the Comforter… Christ… as my “rabbi” or “teacher”. Thus, I do not NEED any other… for it is only by means of THAT One… that I can be led… into ALL truth! I hear HIS voice… not the voice of “strangers”. For HIS law… is not written on tablets of stone… but rather, he was written HIS law… on the table that is my heart.

    Matthew 23:8; John 14:26; 16:13; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 1 John 2:2, 27; Jeremiah 31:34; Hebrews 8:10,11

    I would'nt want anyone to follow me or my thinking. It is the Logos /written word you should feed off of.

    And I must respectfully disagree. It is the Tree of Life that I feed off of… the TRUE Vine… the Root of Jesse… Sprout. It is from HIS “leaves” that I eat… and from HIS cistern that I drink.

    John 6:48-56; 7:37, 38; 15:1-7; 1 Corinthians 10:1-4

    Ive never made my line of thinking mandatory as an example to go by.

    I am not sure I can agree with that. You would have to search YOUR heart to know if that is true.

    Ive always used scripture which you seem to either not want to trust in its entirety or just the prophets and Psalms.

    I trust the scriptures. I do not, however, agree with you that the Bible is entirely scripture, and that is where our differences seem to be… among a couple other things.

    Why do you think I keep stating "your arguement is not with me, but what I expound to you from the scriptures."

    Again, we disagree on what IS scripture. I have shown you from the Bible what my Lord says is scripture… but you cannot seem to “hear” that. But it is of no consequence at this time. Perhaps you are correct: perhaps God is not LETTING you see just yet. If that is true, however, the pivotal point may lie with you and YOUR heart. I do not know… and I have not heard.

    Its that, plain and simple.

    Indeed.

    I leave you in peace,

    As I you... and the greatest of love. I am,

    YOUR servant... and fellow slave of Christ,

    SJ

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Shel:
    I need to re-read much of what you've written, but just to come back to the point I was making, would you concur with the following?:

    When the "spiritually living" die they go to be with their Lord, which is heaven (or "in" heaven, as some may prefer).
    Their spirits reside under the "altar", until the resurrection.

    Gotta go out, now, but I should be back tomorrow.

    Every blessing, in Christ.

  • ellderwho
    ellderwho

    Dearest Aguest,

    You say:

    Dear one, I have also given you this "truth" - that if we draw close to the Father, He... will draw close to us... by drawing us TO the Christ. I have not disputed this "truth" one bit.

    Also, John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.

    Again, I absolutely agree: draw close to God... and He... will draw close to YOU... by means of drawing YOU... to Christ. I have spoken such truth to you. But it is WE... who must "draw close"... first.

    You keep twisting the drawing to the father, on one hand you disagree with scripture, thus:

    , I have also given you this "truth, that if we draw close to the Father

    I have never said or implied -------- "that if we draw close to the father"

    By you saying "I have also given you this truth" you are stating that I in fact said this to you, again I have never said to you "that if we draw close to the father"

    Why do you keep saying I said it in this way:

    Again, I absolutely agree: draw close to God... and He... will draw close to YOU...

    What are you agreeing with? I never said that!

    I show you scriptures that expound the fact of the Father drawing us to Jesus, and you say you agree with it, and then state the exact opposite:

    But it is WE... who must "draw close"... first. "I have not disputed this "truth" one bit."

    Why is it you cannot let go and stay out of the drawing that scripture is showing you?

    You continue in your thinking by trying to have a hand in the drawing.

    You say

    But the word of my Lord is that you have NOT looked up what I have quoted to you… nor have you responded to anything that I have brought up to support what I have shared with you.

    Aguest,

    You gave about four verses that in no way show choice, a few pages ago. I refuted your example of the christians that were baptised in repentance, but not saved. But Appolo did not know of the the ressurection of Christ. So how could he teach it or give it. But you claim the christians were drawing themselves to God. I rebutted your positioin due to the fact that the didnt even know about a salvation to begin with. I continued to ask you what were they praying for? And you couldnt answer.

    The problem you seem to be avoiding is the inablitity of yourself to refute what I have showed you the bible teaches.

    Furthermore, why wont you develope your position from what the bible teaches, as I have asked for your help in doing so, that I can better understand your position.

    I give you scripture on election, then you say "I absolutely agree with the example given" with that statement of concurance. then you reply with opposite statement.Im confused by your reasoning.

    Dearest Aguest,

    I feel like I'm in a round room with you, and I'm trying to show you what the bible teaches and that its in the corner of the room.

    Its ironic you mention this:

    A couple of years ago I heard someone filled with holy spirit speak in this tongue, literally. I had never heard it spoken out loud... and she did not know what the translation was. As she spoke, however, it was if my ears were "opened"... and I understood everything she said. I was shocked; she was not. Not only had I never translated a tongue...

    A women sitting behind me in church(visiting I assume) Sunday told me this same thing, that "she was at a church and heard someone speaking a Aramaic tongue a recongnized it" and she knew right away something was different about it, she began to tell me how she cured her son of "autism" and that night she was going to an exorcism in North New Jersey. Well all this set me back alittle because I was very un familiar with this sorta of thing.

    Ive never heard someone "speak in tongues" or the interpretation of that tongue that was spoken.

    Was it prophesy this woman was speaking to you? Did this" speaking in tongue" up build a church or a non-believer, If there was not an interpreter did she keep quiet? Where you in church at the time?

    Do presently " speak in tongue"

    and is it prophesy, does it up build your church,. Do you feel that speaking in tongues is a sign of salvation?

    Thankyou in advance

    ellderwho

  • ellderwho
    ellderwho

    Aguest,

    How do you react to this:

    "For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."

    Would you agree this is Jesus?

    Im trying to understand your beliefs.

    ellderwho?

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    May you have peace... and...

    Yes... and no. They go to be "under the altar", which is in heaven; however, they are not "with" our Lord. Not yet. They are resting UNTIL such time as they will be with him... when the remainder of their brothers who are to be "killed"... and those of us who do not die... TOGETHER... meet our Lord.

    Matthew 24:30, 31; 1 Thessalonians 5:115-17

    Peace to you!

    Your servant and a slave of Christ,

    SJ

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Again, may you have peace!

    You quote me as saying:

    Dear one, I have also given you this "truth" - that if we draw close to the Father, He... will draw close to us... by drawing us TO the Christ. I have not disputed this "truth" one bit.

    Which I indeed stated, and to which you responded:

    Also, John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.

    To which I stated:

    Again, I absolutely agree: draw close to God... and He... will draw close to YOU... by means of drawing YOU... to Christ. I have spoken such truth to you. But it is WE... who must "draw close"... first.

    But you then state, with regard to me:

    You keep twisting the drawing to the father, on one hand you disagree with scripture, thus:

    And requote me:

    I have also given you this "truth, that if we draw close to the Father

    and state:

    I have never said or implied -------- " that if we draw close to the father"

    This is true… you haven't... and I believe wherein lies our… “difference.” Let me continue, please, and I will explain, for you next say:

    By you saying "I have also given you this truth" you are stating that I in fact said this to you, again I have never said to you " that if we draw close to the father" Why do you keep saying I said it in this way:

    I have NOT said that YOU said it this way. Rather, I have spoken the TRUTH to you... which even THE BIBLE says: that if you… draw close to God... He... will draw close to YOU. But it seems to me that you are confused, for you next say:

    What are you agreeing with? I never said that!

    No, you haven’t. But I now understand why it is that you do not understand what I am speaking of. It appears to me that perhaps YOU think that the verse actually is saying “draw close… to Christ.” But… it does not. It means what it says: draw close… to God. But then, you might have a bit of difficulty understanding that… IF… you believe that Christ… is God. However, he is not. He is the SON… of God.

    You continue:

    I show you scriptures that expound the fact of the Father drawing us to Jesus, and you say you agree with it, and then state the exact opposite: “But it is WE... who must "draw close"... first. I have not disputed this "truth" one bit."”

    The truth is... I did not in fact state the opposite; I stated what the verse says... and what is TRUE. Unfortunately, I don’t think you are HEARING what I am saying: that if you draw close to GOD… HE… will draw close to YOU... and he DOES that... by means of drawing YOU… to Christ. For that truly is what takes place: you draw close to God... and He draws you to Christ so that Christ... can lead you TO Him (God). YOU... can only get so far... in fact, YOU... can only turn around. And it is upon YOU... to do so. Once you DO... God draws you BACK... to Himself... by drawing you TO Christ... whom you at one time turned away FROM... and left behind.

    But... it is YOUR choice... to turn around. True, God must draw you to Christ... but YOU... must turn around so that He will do so. YOU... turn around... or draw close... to God.

    Why is it you cannot let go and stay out of the drawing that scripture is showing you?

    I am absolutely agreeing with the drawing that you speak of: us to Christ by God. You, however, are overlooking that of which I am speaking… us to GOD… and as a result, THEN us… to Christ. But I do think that others here get that “truth”. Why YOU do not… is not for me to say. I will not judge the house servant of another.

    You continue in your thinking by trying to have a hand in the drawing.

    No, you misunderstand me - I continue in my thinking… because it is what has been given me by my Lord: that if I draw close to God… He (God)… will draw close to ME… by drawing ME… to Christ... the One through whom I must ENTER... in order to come BEFORE God. Where have I twisted anything? Does it not say that if we draw close to God, He will draw close to us… and that is it God… who draws us to Christ? I don’t think I’m talking rocket science here, dear Ellderwho. Truly, it is A-B-C…

    You then state:

    You say “But the word of my Lord is that you have NOT looked up what I have quoted to you… nor have you responded to anything that I have brought up to support what I have shared with you.”

    I must now say to that you although you state “Aguest, you gave about four verses that in no way show choice, a few pages ago...” what my Lord told me was true, that you have NOT looked up what I quoted… or responded TO what I brought up? Yes? And this is because you have, instead, remained focused on what you understand… rather than even try to LISTEN to what is being said to YOU. I am compelled to ask, why is that?

    I refuted your example of the christians that were baptized in repentance, but not saved.

    My assertion had nothing to DO with their baptism… but their WANTING holy spirit... "life's water". Yes? But you did not address that. Why?

    But Appolo did not know of the resurrection of Christ. So how could he teach it or give it.

    I humbly beg your pardon, but Apollo would have had to known full well of my Lord’s resurrection. I ask you to reread the account (Acts 18:25) for it says there that “as he was aglow with the spirit… he went speaking and teaching WITH CORRECTNESS the things about JahEshua.” His inaccuracy, however, was that he was only acquainted with the baptism of John. He did not know yet... or understand the arrival of... the OTHER baptism about which spoke... that with fire and SPIRIT... most likely because he, like the ones spoken of after him, had not yet been BAPTIZED by such spirit.

    You continue:

    But you claim the christians were drawing themselves to God.

    Yes. To God. NOT... to Christ. And I gave Cornelius and his household as an example: Cornelius’ PRAYERS... were HEARD… so that AS A RESULT... angels were SENT… to him. And when HE… Cornelius… “had called together his relatives and intimate friends” (note, Cornelius called them together)... these came, dear Ellderwho… because they WANTED to. By means of this wanting to… God… drew them… to Christ... who poured out holy spirit on them... so as to "regenerate" them by means of such spirit. They were then "conceived"... as "new" creations... awaiting a birth.

    I rebutted your position due to the fact that the didn’t even know about a salvation to begin with.

    Again, I humbly beg your pardon, but THE SCRIPTURES… bore witness to salvation by means of Messiah… and all of these had the scriptures. Thus, they ALL knew about salvation… and were looking forward to it.

    John 4:22, 25; 11:20-29; Luke 16:26-31; John 5:39, 40

    I continued to ask you what were they praying for?

    I don’t recall your asking such a thing… but...

    And you couldn’t answer.

    Indeed, if I had known that this is what you were asking for, I would most certainly have TOLD you: they were ASKING… for MERCY. UN-deserved kindness. Since we are ALL sinners… and thus destined to die... as the “wage” FOR our sins… IS death... we can ASK for… and RECEIVE… MERCY... by means of the GIFT… that God gives... LIFE… by means of HOLY SPIRIT. And it is a GIFT because He doesn't HAVE to, but does because He WANTS to... even though we don't DESERVE it. That is WHY it is mercy. We can ASK for forgiveness of our sins... by means of the blood of Christ... and have such request GRANTED.

    Matthew 9:27; 15:22; 20:30; Mark 10:47; Luke 18:13, 38; Romans 6:23; Psalm 32:5

    The problem you seem to be avoiding is the inability of yourself to refute what I have showed you the bible teaches.

    But I have refuted it, and will refute it one time more, below. Unfortunately, you are not HEARING my refutation.
    Furthermore, why wont you develop your position from what the bible teaches, as I have asked for your help in doing so, that I can better understand your position.

    The Bible is not MY teacher, dear Ellderwho, as I stated to you in one of my previous responses. However, because it is YOURS, my Lord has given me a final basis on which to "develop my position"… and I will do just that, b efore I close this thread.

    I give you scripture on election, then you say "I absolutely agree with the example given" with that statement of concurrence.

    You did, and I did.

    Then you reply with opposite statement. I’m confused by your reasoning.

    I do not believe my statement to be opposite, but that you believe God and Christ to be one individual, so that when I say “draw close to God,” you take it as “draw close to Christ.” So, that there appears to be a contradiction. But truly, there is not. As I said, I will conclude this below. I beg your patience.

    Dearest Aguest, I feel like I'm in a round room with you, and I'm trying to show you what the bible teaches and that its in the corner of the room.

    I apologize for that. Truly, it is not my intention. Truly. However, if the Bible is your "teacher"... this will quite likely happen with more folks than just me. I give you "christianity"... and all of the various "takes" THEY have on any number of issues. Why? Because the Bible is their teacher... rather than the One whom God APPOINTED to teach us... Christ, the Comforter... the Holy Spirit. Be that as it may, y ou go on to say:

    Its ironic you mention this:

    And quote me as saying that:

    A couple of years ago I heard someone filled with holy spirit speak in this tongue, literally. I had never heard it spoken out loud... and she did not know what the translation was. As she spoke, however, it was if my ears were "opened"... and I understood everything she said. I was shocked; she was not. Not only had I never translated a tongue...

    I do not see the "irony", but... you continue with your own account:

    A women sitting behind me in church (visiting I assume) Sunday told me this same thing, that "she was at a church and heard someone speaking a Aramaic tongue a recognized it" and she knew right away something was different about it, she began to tell me how she cured her son of "autism" and that night she was going to an exorcism in North New Jersey. Well all this set me back a little because I was very un familiar with this sorta of thing.

    I can understand how that could set you back, truly, for I was not prepared for it, either. You continue:

    I've never heard someone "speak in tongues" or the interpretation of that tongue that was spoken.

    May JAH grant that you may... if you need to. However, for those WITH FAITH... i t is not a necessary phenomenon. Rather, it is a "sign" for those LACKING FAITH... non-believers... who need a manifestation of the spirit... because they have not yet learned to DISCERN the spirit... with spirit. Prophesying, on the other hand is for those WITH faith... for prophesying upbuilds the congregation, while tongues upbuild only the individual speaking... unless, of course, there is an interpreter so that ALL may understand and be built up.
    1 Corinthians 14:22

    For is the PURPOSE of the gifts of the spirit, whatever they may be, isn't it? The building up OF THE ENTIRE CONGREGATION... and not just the individual members of it?

    Was it prophesy this woman was speaking to you?

    Yes, it was. And a lament. I almost broke my heart! I posted it here some time ago. I will look for it and send you the link, if I can.

    Did this" speaking in tongue" up build a church or a non-believer?

    Indeed, it did, at that time.

    If there was not an interpreter did she keep quiet?

    At first, we ALL kept quiet. Who knew what was being said? Certainly not me! And then all of a sudden it dawned on me that I understood!! Every word! Talk about shaking ME up!! And I began to interpret. It occurred again, a short time after, when others joined us.

    Where you in church at the time?

    IN… a "church"? No, dear one. We ARE the “church”. The “church”… is the “Congregation... of the Firstborn,” the BODY of Christ. Wherever WE are… the “flesh eating birds”… there HE is (the “carcass”). So that wherever two or more of US… are gathered in HIS name… there HE is… also. Whenever we come together to eat his flesh… and drink his blood… he, too, is there… a spirit… taking the “evening meal” with us. He does not do so literally, where it is MANIFEST, because that will not occur until we reclined with him at his table in the kingdom. However, he does so NOW… by means of holy spirit.

    Revelation 3:19

    God... does not dwell in handmade temples... but... in... US... the "temple of God." WE... are the "house" of that One.

    1 Corinthians 3:16; Ephesians 2:21

    What YOU are speaking of... is a "synagogue"... a public meeting place where scripture is read. The early members of the Body... met in individual homes - they were expelled... from the synagogues. On this night, we... three of us... were on the porch of the house of a lady we were waiting to come home from work (she is a nurse, I believe)... so that we could share in washing each other's feet... and eating and drinking the flesh and blood of our Lord... and sharing our experiences so as to build one another up. It was about 11pm or so. Later, when the lady came home, she brought two more with her... so, the second time, there were six (6) of us. We "ministered" to one another, gave thanks, and ate bread and drank wine, while sharing our experiences and asking/answering one another's questions to encourage one another. I have seen only the two I was initially with since that time, but I hear that the others are doing well.

    Do you presently " speak in tongue"

    No, dear one, I do not. Unfortunately, speaking in a tongue is not my “gift”; however, interpreting such speech is… or was, in this instance. I have not beeln called to use it since.

    MY “gifts”, ordinarily, are speech of wisdom, speech of knowledge, faith, prophesying and discerning inspired utterances (or hearing spirits)… and mercy... which gift I am to use to “release” those wishing to be released, whether they ask me... or my Lord and he thereafter directs me.

    John 20:22, 23

    ALL of them... are to be used according to HIS will… and not mine. When I asked about speaking in tongues, whether it was something I should desire to do, my Lord’s reply was that the gifts he had given me were sufficient for the “work” he would give me to do. So, I stopped worrying about it and just use what I have to do his will, as he directs me. I have NO doubt that if I NEEDED such a gift to build my faith… OR that should he ever have a “work” for me that required it… he would grant it to me… without hesitation… simply because I asked… and he wanted to. But the gifts that I HAVE… are so wonderful themselves, why would I think I needed more… or that he has withheld anything from me? I know him: he is not like that.

    1 Corinthians 12:4-11

    I do know others with the gift of tongues (and it was just as "weird" for them... for they are also ex-JWs!)... as well as the gift of healing, the gift of ministering, of distributing, as well as speech of wisdom and speech of knowledge. And certainly… the gift of faith.

    Romans 12:4-8

    and is it prophesy, does it up build your church…

    For those who speak in tongues that I know personally, their gift does not build up. Rather, it is used primarily for prayer. Some of them do understand the futility of using it when a group is together just because, as without an interpreter, it just makes others... uncomfortable, feeling left out or inferior. Because they are SO loving... they refrain. I believe some have asked for the gift of interpretation... but I have not been present if and when it was used.

    My gift of prophesy has indeed built up the "church" that consists of those given me TO build up, including some here. They are not "mine," but have been given me that I might serve them. They belong to my Lord, as HIS sheep. My lack of the gift of tongues, however, has stumbled some who believe that such a gift is absolutely necessary to manifest that one has indeed received holy spirit. They have not yet come to understand that there are MANY gifts… and that they are given to each one as GOD has determined, through CHRIST… for the building up of the church… or HOUSE… which God is to occupy by spirit... that each member is "set" in the Body just as GOD pleases... through Christ. So, having one gift but not another does not make one a lesser member in the Body.

    Do you feel that speaking in tongues is a sign of salvation?

    No, I know it is not. The spiritual ability to speak in a foreign tongue is merely one of the many gifts of the spirit… and there are many. It is not even the greatest of the gifts… nor is it the primary gift that we should seek. For tongues only builds up the congregation... IF there is an interpreter. And building up the congregation... rather than only ourselves... is what should be our goal. Thus, prophesying builds up in a greater way... because all can hear and understand what is being spoken.

    1 Corinthians 12:12-14:39

    LOVE… is the greatest gift. If you have all the others, but do not have love... the others are of no benefit. My Lord did not say that by the gifts of the spirit all would know we were his disciples. He did not give us a new command... to have gifts among ourselves. He did not say that we would PROVE ourselves sons of our Father... if we had gifts of the spirit.

    Rather, he said that by LOVE... all would know that we were his disciples, and that the new command he was giving us was to LOVE one another... to have LOVE among ourselves... and that we would PROVE ourselves sons of God... if we LOVED... even our enemies.

    For although we are sinners... LOVE... covers a MULTITUDE of transgressions.

    Thank you in advance

    It is I who thank you, dear Ellderwho… for giving me this opportunity to bear witness to my Lord and what he has given me. I am YOUR servant... and thus, offer you peace.

    Aguest, how do you react to this: "For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace." Would you agree this is Jesus?

    Indeed, I would agree that this is speaking about my Lord, the Son and Christ of the Most Holy One of Israel, whose name is JAH... of Armies... and which Son is named JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH.

    However, I believe it is the words “Eternal Father,” that you wish me to address, yes? Those words are true: while my Lord is not JAH, the Most Holy One of Israel, the Almighty God and Heavenly Father of us all… he… my Lord… IS the One who BEGETS us… brings us to Life… by means of the spirit OF God… holy spirit… authority over which spirit has been given HIM. God put HIS spirit in His Son… the "cistern"... who, in turn, grants that spirit to US... by pouring it out upon us. It is from that One, the Rock-Mass... that we must drink such "waters of life". And b y means of it, drinking it... we... as "seed of the woman"... are fertilized... conceived… BEGET... for life everlasting… as BROTHERS of Christ… and sons… of GOD... through Christ.

    Im trying to understand your beliefs.

    I understand that, truly. Perhaps THIS time, I was able to help you out in that respect, understanding my beliefs. I thank you for patience.

    On a final note, dear Ellderwho... I promised you above that I would conclude this matter, and use the Bible to do so. My Lord has given me one last verse to share with you… and I would ask that BEFORE you read on, you go into your “temple”… before the “ark” of YOUR covenant with God… the thing which you are to guard above all else... your HEART… and ASK him to help you hear the TRUTH of what is being said. If you will be so kind as to do so. Okay, here is what my Lord directed me to share with you:

    “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer… of the prophets... and of those sent forth to her. How often I WANTED to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under HER wings! But… YOU people… DID NOT WANT IT! Look! Your house… is abandoned to you.” - Matthew 23:37

    God did not reject them, dear Ellderwho. THEY... rejected HIM... by rejecting the cornerstone God gave them. Why did they reject that Stone? Because... they didn't WANT him!

    Matthew 21:42; Luke 19:14

    Thus, the SOLE reason that Jerusalem was abandoned by God's spirit... the SOLE reason why that spirit left the temple at Jerusalem and entered into the people in the upper room at Pentecost... was that Jerusalem... DIDN'T WANT IT... and apparently the people in that room... did.

    Acts 2:41; Matthew 2:1-6

    God WANTS to draw us to Christ, dear Ellderwho. But w e… must WANT… to BE drawn.

    I bid you the greatest of peace. I am…

    YOUR servant… and a slave of Christ,

    SJ

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