The Gospel

by UnDisfellowshipped 143 Replies latest watchtower bible

AGuest

May you both have peace!
First, dear Gumby, please forgive my "can of worms", but you know I must respond -
Okay, then:
Aguest, you know Im going to question you on this.

Actually, dear Ellderwho, I did not know that. But since you have...
Before I begin, however, I must make it known to all here that I now "know" you, by means of your replying accurately to my question. I am not uncertain why you felt it should not be made public, other than your kind consideration that I might not want the gist of your reply to me, but please know that I have nothing to hide, nor to be ashamed of, so I would not have taken offense at your reply being public. Truly. In my humble opinion, you and I are no different that Apollo (who was aglow with holy spirit) and Prisca/Aquilla (who had to expound the way of God MORE ACCURATELY to him).
Acts 18:24-26
They did not let their difference in understanding separate them from the love of the Christ... and therefore, each other. Now, on with this subject, as it is the same that we were discussing previously:
Why do you tell people they can choose God.
Because... they can. God and Christ are one, in union. And Christ... is the Life. And we CAN... choose Life. We have ALWAYS had a choice, just as Adam and Eve did: to eat from the Tree of Life... or the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Bad. The choice... IS ours.
Joshua 24:15
Ive asked you to prove this, and were unable. Why? because its not in scripture.
I must humbly disagree with you, Ellderwho; I believe I did indeed give you proof, but you do not accept such proof. The proof I submitted to you was that it is based on OUR heart condition that we ARE chosen: God chooses those who are clean... of HEART. And it is we who CHOOSE what is in our hearts. God does not see man sees, but what the HEART is. Our HEART... however... and what is IN it, is in OUR control... and no one else's.
There are SO many scriptures and verses to support this that I don't know where to begin! But, I should not have to give you scriptures or verses, for the holy spirit that is IN you should bear witness to the truth that I have shared with you. However, I will at least give you:
James 4:6, 1 Peter 5:5, 6, Matthew 23:12, Luke 14:11 and Isaiah 58:6-59:2
and then I ask you, based on this, WHOSE choice it is? True, God WILL humble us... if we do not humble ourselves. But that is not a "good" humbling, is it? Is that how He even wants to do it, humble us rather than we humble ourselves? I believe He wants US to do it. Thus, if it remains with us to humble ourselves so that God can and WILL exalt us... WHOSE choice IS it?
Show this forum how your doctrine works.

I have no "doctrine", dear Ellderwho. It is a simply a matter of what you perceive versus what I do. You feel that we have NO choice, than God has His mind made up and chooses according to that will. I don't dispute that; however, I assert that such choice is FIRST based on a choice WE make... that WE can CHOOSE to draw close to Him so that He WILL draw close to us and draw us to Christ. I assert that it is WE who can CHOOSE to cleanse the "inside of the cup"... it is we who can CHOOSE to humble ourselves... to make our minds and HEARTS over.
From scriptures and where in scripture does it teach this so-called Choice.
I have given you the above, and again say that there are way too many to post here. I would exhort you, then, to look up every scripture/verse YOU can... with regard to the heart. But I will also respond to your statement elsewhere that the Truth is *Jesus* and that he sets us free by holy spirit, both of which statements are true :
Matthew 7:7; Mark 11:24; Luke 11:13
Now, I also have to say that these are not "scripture"... so I am not sure if you accept this "proof" of choice. Thus, I also give you 2 Kings 2:9, 10, which was written by Jeremiah, the Prophet, and thus IS scripture.
If your going to step out and proclaim this is what "your Lord" has told you to teach you better be able to back it up.
Well, of COURSE, dear one, as my Lord would NEVER leave me without a "second" witness. For those who lack faith ALWAYS need such, don't they?
With something more than it was whispered in my ear.
Hmmmm... personally, for ME... that is truly all it takes. My FAITH... is the same as that of Noah: who besides him heard to build an ark? Who besides Abraham heard to take up Isaac and sacrifice him? Who besides Moses saw the burning bush and heard the voice speaking to him? Is that not what faith IS... the assured expectation of the things hopes for, the EVIDENT demonstration of REALITIES... THOUGH NOT BEHELD? But, to help you get the sense of WHY what is whispered in MY ear is sufficient for ME, I give you:
Matthew 10:27 (which has been mistranslated/mistransliterated in the account written by Luke, but is of no concern, for he SAID he received his account from others, thus, 2nd-, 3rd-, 4th-hand... or more).
I also give you John 10:3-5, 27, Hebrews 12:18-25, and with reference to myself and how it is that I hear, 1 Corinthians 12:10. With reference to the latter, I must ask how it is that you believe you have received such spirit... and yet, deny its gifts (and I don't mean its "fruits", but its "gifts").

You went on to say to Gumby that:
I may have tired Shelby out.
Do not worry about me, dear one. I get my "refreshment" from my Lord... so I have the stamina to continue the discussion, so long as you do. That is, at least, until it becomes unfruitful... or blasphemous.
I took her for a swim in scripture and come to find out shes really a "scripitual spiritizing swimmer" You know "lets take one verse and jump up and down on it without contextualizing" I smell a little Jw-ism there.
I am sorry you feel that way, dear Ellderwho, truly. I don't believe it to be accurate, and I won't say here what I think it is that YOU are doing, because I would then be speaking against you and by means of the spirit that we "share"... would be "dividing" the Christ. I am sorry, but I cannot do that.
If what I have shared with you above is sufficient, then, praise JAH! If not... please ask and I will endeavor to make even more reply, if need be.
Again, I bid you peace... and I am...
YOUR servant... and FELLOW slave of Christ...
SJ
gumby

I told ya she was a rascal
Gumby
LittleToe

Shel:
My contention is that the altar is in the heavens.
There they stay until the resurrection, at the time of the "new heavens and the new earth".
Navigator

Undisfellowshipped
When do you think the canon of the old testament was fixed? All of my references say that it was at the Council of Jamnia in 96 A.D.. You would do well to listen to William Penwell. He could teach you a great deal about the history and origins of the bible. Like most fundamentalists, you reject anything that doesn't fit into your neat belief structure.
AGuest

May you have peace!
Your contention is correct. However, I ask you where is "heaven"? Is it not where God and Christ dwell?
Romans 8:9, 10; Ephesians 2:21, 22
Peace to you!
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SJ
Deputy Dog

ellderwho
I think aguest believes like a JW. She seems to think that harmonizing the Bible (rightly dividing the Word of Truth) is done by talking more or showing that she has more verses on her side than someone else. She doesn't seem to understand that if all the scripture don't agree, than you don't have truth.
Some day she may see that it doesn't matter what I say, you say or what she says. It only matters what GOD says!
ellderwho

aguest,
You can post long and convoluted answers which really are biblical double speak. You NEVER ANSWER THE question.
How do you explain humans being spiritually DEAD. And you, yourself, reviving yourself into spiritually life?
You absolutely go against what Paul teaches, I have given you over 30 verses reflecting what the bible teaches not what I teach. Your dispute is with scripture not me.
aguest;
There are SO many scriptures and verses to support this that I don't know where to begin!
Come now dearest aguest,
You can certainly start somewhere give me something, anything.
Oh, you give these
James 4:6, 1 Peter 5:5, 6, Matthew 23:12, Luke 14:11 and Isaiah 58:6-59:2
and then I ask you, based on this, WHOSE choice it is?
Being humble. Please dearest aguest.These scriptures dont say anything about choice. Nor do they teach it
You state;
True, God WILL humble us... if we do not humble ourselves.
Were is the reasoning here.
But that is not a "good" humbling, is it?
What?
Is that how He even wants to do it, humble us rather than we humble ourselves?
Huh?
I believe He wants US to do it.
You believe, thats it, its YOU. Not me, not the bible, you.
Thus, if it remains with us to humble ourselves so that God can and WILL exalt us... WHOSE choice IS it?
Those scriptures spoke of having a humble attitude, whats your point?
Being a humble human is NOT preemptive to salvation.
Your quoted veres in no way define choice, you quoted none of the usual "choice" verses why? Im not sure but you still are faced with the delima;
answer the 30 some verses Ive showed together to cement my point, Aguest you have shown no refutation.
Again show me were the bible TEACHES choice.
Finally you state;
your replying accurately to my question.
according to you, Ive responded correctly.
So what does that prove. That you approve of my theology, my answer, I could have pulled that answer out of a text book and you would have never known the difference.
Futhermore you state;
Hmmmm... personally, for ME... that is truly all it takes. My FAITH...
By the way, this faith you say you have doesnt even start with you, its not your faith.
You state Abraham,
You must understand that God has passed universal judgement on mankind, he sees that all men are without faith: "they have all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no not one" Rom 3:12 That included Abraham.
Abraham came from a family of idol worshippers, and was most likely a idol worshipper himself.
You mention the book of Joshua, ironic.
in the last chapter of Jos. He reminds them of their pagen past; "thus saith the LORD God of Israel, your fathers dwelt on the other side of the river (Euphrates) of old, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nahor; and they served other gods. And I took your father Abraham, from the other side of the river, and lead him throughout all the land of Canaan, and multiplied his seed, and gave him Isaac.
You mention Isaiah; okay,
"hearken unto Me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the Lord; look unto the rock from which ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit from which ye were diggged. Look unto Abraham, your father, and unto Sarah, who bore you" The idea is, their is nothing in their ancestary that conmends them to God.
Abrahams grandson Jacob,
Even his name means "schemer" (subplanter) all his scheming made his own brothers want to kill him. Jacob goes back to his roots, uncle Laben, then marries the sisters. This relationship eventually falls apart, Laben goes away on business, Jacob takes off with the daughters, Laben catches up and finds all the idols in the saddle bag. Gen 31.
The point, Abraham relatives are still idol worshippers even though God chose Abraham.
Israel, choosen, or chosed God ?
Duet 7, Moses tells us why God chose Israel to be the nation to which he would give the law and eventually the savior.
" the LORD did not chose you because ye were great in number than any people; for ye were the fewest in number than any people. But because the LORD loved you..." 7-8
Why did God love them? because he loved them. Why did he choose them? because he chose them. this is not human logic, this is divine logic. Its the logic of GRACE.
Abrahams faith was preceeded by Gods call. The call came twice, once in Ur of the Chaldees (acts 7:2-4), and once, years later when he was in Haran.
Remember this?
"now the Lord said unto Abram, 'get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will show thee; and I will make thee a great nation...." gen 12:1
doesnt sound like choice to me
His departure from Ur was his first step of faith.
You state;
But, to help you get the sense of WHY what is whispered in MY ear is sufficient for ME
Who whisperd to you first? Who loved you first?
You can mix your few scriptures in a bowl all you want , you will never be able to show that is what the bible teaches.
I leave you in peace,
ellderwho
ellderwho

Deputy D,
well said,
Some day she may see that it doesn't matter what I say, you say or what she says. It only matters what GOD says!
However, as the "BIBLE" says, Gods word is useful in teaching, rebuking, etc... Should I, in this setting where doctrine gets batted around , not want to keep in check, a persons veiws' verses what the BIBLE actually teaches.
If their is doctrine that is being floated out to this forum, I think it should be subjected to a healthy srcutinizing with the use of scripture.
In Christ
ellderwho
UnDisfellowshipped

Navigator said:
Undisfellowshipped
When do you think the canon of the old testament was fixed? All of my references say that it was at the Council of Jamnia in 96 A.D..
Even if that were so, it is still 150+ years before the Roman Catholic Church.
From my research, the Roman Catholic Church did not begin until around the middle of the 3rd Century A.D. and the first Pope was not until the middle of the 5th Century A.D..
Anyway, my research has shown that the Old Testament Canon was fixed by the Jews about 500 years before 96 A.D.
Here is a quote from a Website that has this view:
http://www.anabaptists.org/history/howwegot.html
"There is much evidence to indicate that the Canon of the Old Testament was fixed by the about the year 400 B.C. largely as a result of the work of Ezra and Nehemiah and a council of Jews known as the Great Synagogue, which met after the return from the Babylonian captivity. Long before that time, however, many of the books we now have in the Old Testament had been agreed upon as inspired."
Navigator said:
You would do well to listen to William Penwell. He could teach you a great deal about the history and origins of the bible. Like most fundamentalists, you reject anything that doesn't fit into your neat belief structure.
I could say the exact same thing about people who try to disprove the Bible with so-called "facts" which are taken ONLY from sources which are against Christianity.
Where did I ever "reject" what William Penwell said?
I did ask William Penwell some very direct and important questions about his "facts", which he has not responded to yet. I am still patiently waiting for his response.
If anyone ever shows me any actual, legitimate, proven FACTS from reputable and reliable sources, then I will believe the facts.
Are you willing to do the same?
Are you willing to examine BOTH SIDES -- the Christian "facts" and the Non-Christian "facts"?
Since there are two sets of "facts" about the Bible, one set has to be false.
Are you willing to REFUTE the "facts" about the Bible Canon that are listed on the Christian Websites I posted?
http://www.anabaptists.org/history/howwegot.html
http://www.letsdiscussjesus.org/bible.html
http://www.ntcanon.org/table.shtml
http://www.ntcanon.org/lists.shtml
I welcome any and all attempts to refute the information found on those Websites above.
Also, I thought you might be interested in seeing the following list about who Jesus Christ was, when He lived, and what He did -- all taken from SECULAR writings (this info is taken from http://www.neverthirsty.org ):
The Talmud (135 A.D. - 200 A.D.):
1) Jesus was hanged or crucified.

2) Jesus died on Passover eve or Friday afternoon.

3) No one defended Jesus.
--------------------------
The Passing Peregrinus (by Lucian, 2nd Century A.D.):
1) Christians worshipped Jesus.

2) Jesus was crucified for what he taught.

3) Jesus started Christianity.
4) Jesus' disciples believed Jesus' teachings.

5) Early Christians taught that when one was converted he or she had eternal life.

6) They lived by faith - they believed Jesus.
--------------------------
Mara Bar-Serapion (73 A.D.):
1) Jesus was regarded as a wise king.
2) Jesus was murdered.
3) Jesus' teachings lived on.
--------------------------
Phlegon (80 A.D.):
(Quoted in "Origen Against Celsus" and "De. opif. mund. II21"):
1) Jesus had knowledge of the future.

2) Jesus' predictions came true.

3) The sun was darkened during Christ's death.

4) A great earthquake occurred during Christ's death.

5) The facts were recorded in a historical account of Tiberius.
--------------------------
The Extant Writings of Julius Africanus 18 (221 A.D.) quoting Thallus (circa 52 A.D.):
1) Darkness covered the earth at Christ's death.

2) The only question was: "What caused it?"

3) The time of the darkness agrees with Matthew 27:45.

4) An eclipse cannot account for the darkness - this was a miracle.
--------------------------
Hadrian, Imperator Caesar Trainus, (76-138 A.D.):
1) Christians existed during the reign of Hadrian.

2) Christians were in conflict with society.

3) They followed Christ.
--------------------------
Emperor Trajan (53-117 A.D.), Imperator Caesar Divi Nervae Filius Nerva Traianus (Quoted in Pliny letters X, 97):
1) Christians were being punished for religious reasons.

2) Christians could save themselves by worshipping "our gods."

3) Christians were being turned in by other citizens.
--------------------------
Cornelius Tacitus; Annals 15.44 (Written 52-54 A.D.):
1) Christ lived in the period of A.D. 14-37.

2) Pontius Pilate put him to death.

3) The word "superstition" suggests a religion.

4) Christ had followers who were named Christians.
--------------------------
Gaius Plinius Caecilius Secundus (A.D. 61-112) [or Pliny the Younger]; Epistles X96:
1) Jesus was worshipped like a god.
2) Christians met on a fixed day of the week.
3) The meeting occurred before sunrise.
4) They sang songs to Christ.
5) Christians were committed to holy behavior.
--------------------------
Gaius Suetonius Tranquilla; Life of Claudius (117-138 A.D.):
1) Christians held to new beliefs.
2) Christians followed Christ.
3) Christians were punished and banished from Rome.
--------------------------
Pontius Pilate (1 B.C.-circa 37 A.D.) was the fifth Roman procurator of Judea (26-36 A.D.), under Emperor Tiberius, who sentenced Jesus to death by crucifixion. The quotes below refer to the Acts of Pontius Pilate, a document now missing. Its existence is strongly supported by Epiphanius (Heresies 50.1), Justin Martyr (First Apology) and Tertullian (Apology).

"'At His coming the lame will leap as a deer, and the stammering tongue will clearly speak: the blind will see, and the lepers will be healed; and the dead will rise, and walk.' And that He did those things, you can learn from the Acts of Pontius Pilate." -First Apology 48.

'''They pierced my hands and my feet,' was used in reference to the nails of the cross which were driven into His hands and feet. And. . . they cast lots for His clothes, and after they crucified Him distributed it among them. And that these things did happen , you can ascertain from the Acts of Pontius Pilate.' -First Apology 35.

This reference reveals several key things:
1) Christ performed amazing miracles.

2) Christ died on a cross with hands and feet pierced with nails.
UnDisfellowshipped

Ellderwho,
I agree with most everything you have posted so far.
However, I do have a question about whether or not humans have freedom to choose God.
I have read several Verses which seem to show that it is entirely up to God to choose whoever He wants to save.
But then, I have seen a few other Verses, which seem to show that humans have freedom to choose.
Here are the main Verses that appear to me to show that humans have freedom to choose God:
2nd Peter 3:7-10: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved for fire against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But, beloved, do not be ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some men count slowness; but is long-suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are in it shall be burned up.
It says there that The Lord does not will that anyone should be destroyed, and that He is long-suffering toward humans because He wants them all to come to repentance.
That appears to me to show that humans have freedom to choose whether or not they will repent.
I look forward to your comments on this.

The Gospel

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