Little toe
I think you give good advice about writing!
But I dont think that interpretation has that much to do with Gods sovereignty
I think it has more to do with the type of God you need for the forgiveness of your sins
Deputy Dog
The Gospel
by UnDisfellowshipped 143 Replies latest watchtower bible
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AGuest
May you have peace!
You state:
Two points:
1. Isaiah was written to a covenant people (the Israelites) who had already been chosen.
2. Through Isaiah, God was calling His people back to Him - ergo, his initiation.
Indeed! Am I not Israel… of the tribe of BenJahMin… which tribe JAH is yet calling? Does not the Spirit AND the Bride KEEP saying “Come!”? And is it not to Israel that I have been sent? Have I not SAID that I am a servant… of Israel… as WELL as those who go with them? I have not been sent to the “nations” per se (nor would I turn away from those NOT Israel by blood)… but to my brothers, Israel. Israel of the FLESH. Are we speaking of those who call themselves “Israel” by whatever means? No, I am speaking of those in whose veins flows Abraham’s blood. How do I know who they are? I do not… until it is revealed by holy spirit. For God… and thus, Christ… KNOW who is Israel. Israel’s “number”… has not yet been filled… for it is filled simultaneously with the number of the nations. There are some among every generation. EVERY generation… has the call go out to them… Jew AND non-Jew.
By means of being Israel, then, I WAS under a Law Covenant; however, by means of Messiah… I can come into a NEW Covenant. I HAVE said, “Blessed is he that comes in JAH’s name!” for my Lord’s name IS “Jah Eshua”… JAH… saves. I have found… the Messiah… and ACCEPTED his covenant. And is not that Covenant a blessing? How then can I refrain from telling my brothers… or anyone who will HEAR… of it?
And how does one KNOW that one is Abraham’s seed? One does not have to ask one’s mother/father of the flesh… or consult with a “rabbi” or the family Torah. One KNOWS… because JAH knows. And HIS spirit… “bears witness” with such one’s spirit as to EXACTLY who… and what… they are, whether they are Israel by means of the flesh… or Israel… by means of SPIRIT… and Israel of the SPIRIT… INCLUDES… Israel of the flesh! Yes? And so, just because earthling man’s “chronology” has been destroyed does NOT mean that JAH’s memory has! If the very hairs of our head are “numbered,” how could HE not know?
I have… time and time again… stated to WHOM I am speaking… for WHOM… my message is meant. Time… and time… and time… and time… again. Now, if there are those among the nations who ALSO hear… so as to go WITH Israel who returns… then PRAISE JAH!
Thus it is truly a gift from God, and not anything that we have earned (Eph.2:8).
Dear LT… you are absolutely correct: we cannot EARN it. But wanting it… and earning it… are two different things. If I want a gift and you give it to me, it is still a gift, yes? Because you GAVE it to me. Even though I wanted it first. However, if I worked and EARNED it… it is not a gift… but a WAGE: I am entitled to it… DESERVE it… because I worked for it… and the worker is worthy of his wage.
However, the gift of life by means of God’s mercy is due to UN-deserved kindness: I cannot work for it… but I can ASK for it… purely as an gift… something I did not DESERVE… but the Grantor… being MERCIFUL… would condescend to give to me ANYWAY. Out of HIS merciful heart.
Now, if my heart is “wicked”… deceitful, hateful and hypocritical in its purpose for wanting… WHY would God give it to me? BUT… if my heart is “upright”… not sinless… but upright… so that I am NOT deceitful, hateful or hypocritical in my desiring, but only wanting to partake of His mercy… why would He withhold it from me? True… I am a sinner… which is why I NEED His mercy… why I am ASKING for it. But am I not trying to HIDE that fact… Unlike Adam, etc. I CONFESS it… and openly acknowledge it… not deceitfully (“yeah, I’m a sinner; we’re all sinners – God, please forgive me for my sins”…) but HONESTLY… out of PURE heart (“Father, I have sinned… against YOU… in that I have… such and so! Please… have MERCY on me!”)
Is He not the God of the broken-hearted so as to hear the prayers and supplications of such a one?
Psalm 32:5
Many take such mercy lightly. They consider it a “blanket” blessing… to cover us at all times. However, it does NOT work that way! It COVERS us… for ALL sins and blasphemies… save blasphemy against the spirit… IF WE TRULY WANT IT… so as to ASK for it! I gave you all a plethora of verses to show you that, which verses… you do not address.
I would still agree with your comments that it is our obligation to "respond", yet we are enabled even to do this.
Why do you feel that I think otherwise? IF you dear ones would condescend to read what I share with YOU… just as I give such consideration to YOU… and to look up the scriptures and verses I include… you would have “heard” me say that all we CAN do… is turn around. We cannot walk toward Christ. But… we must WANT to turn around so that we CAN… be drawn. Jerusalem… my forefathers… did NOT want it, and so THEIR house… was abandoned to them. How is it that you cannot hear what the MASTER himself says… yet, accept “every wind of teaching,” from others… EVEN it if it is mistransliterated teachings? Do you not HAVE a teacher… and it is not by means of HIS spirit that you are taught?Please… search your heart on this, LT… and rather than lean upon our own understanding, inquire of our Lord as to whether what I say to IS true… or not.
As always, I bid you the greatest of peace. I am…
YOUR servant and fellow slave of Christ,
Shel
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AGuest
that ones do not respond specifically to anything I’ve posted that the MASTER is recorded to have said and done, but will argue purely based on what others have said. How IS that, exactly? Who truly is our Leader? Ah, well…)
Dearest Ellderwho… may you have peace!
Please know that I understand what you believe, when you quote:
Romans 9:16 It does not depend on man's desire or effort but on Gods mercy
But I exhort you, please, first read the Greek… and do not “lean” upon this mistransliteration. What was SAID… in the original language… was that it is not up to one’s WILL… or one’s RUNNING… but up to God’s MERCY. This is as it was with the man, Simon, who thought he could BUY it with silver. Did he WANT it? Apparently, so. But for what PURPOSE? So as to have the “special powers” that the GIFTS of such spirit grant! Thus, just because one wants to be SAVED… or is running so as to be saved… means little. However, if one WANTS God’s MERCY… so as to BE saved…. one CAN ask… and receive it. How do we KNOW this? Because… OUR LORD SHOWED US: whenever he was ASKED for mercy… he gave it. SOMETIMES… he gave it even without being asked (John 8:1-11)… because HE is merciful, just as the Father is… and thus, shows mercy to whomever HE wishes. BUT… he ALWAYS gave it… when ASKED.We will hide in the darkness just like Adam because of our shame and will blame others for our mistakes.
Not ALL of us, dear Ellderwho:
John 1:9-12
I ask you: have you not read what our Lord is recorded to have said?
“Now THIS… is the basis for judgment… that the Light has come into the world.
BUT… men… have loved the darkness, for THEIR works… were wicked. For he
that practices vile things… HATES the Light… AND DOES NOT COME… TO the
Light… in order that his works may BE reproved. BUT… he that does what is
TRUE… COMES TO THE LIGHT, in order that HIS works… may be made
manifest as having been worked… in God.”
John 3:19-21
How does that work, exactly… how does one “COME to the Light” (John 8:11) in order to manifest that his works have been worked in God? By drawing close… to God. And we draw close… by ACCEPTING the discipline GIVEN by God… WANTING it… and not REJECTING it… belittling it. And it is not about the Ten Commandments… but about learning peace… so as to learn LOVE. We are to PURSUE it.
Hebrews 12:4-14
AND… we PURSUE… SANCTIFICATION… for as the GREEK says:
“Peace be you pursuing with all… AND the sanctification… of which apart from NO ONE will see the Lord…”
“it is difficult to debate theology when both parties do not hold to scripture as authority.”
This is quite true... particularly when one party KNOWS that the Bible is NOT the authority, but rather Christ is… and the other party cannot “see” that truth. Yet. Cannot see... yet... t hat is the Holy Spirit that has been sent to teach us all things… NOT the Bible. I do not understand fully why this is such an issue… why ones cannot “hear” the TRUTH of this statement. They will refer to Paul… and writings... and everyone BUT the One who has been GIVEN… ALL AUTHORITY… the One whom God Himself said we were to listen to... while calling something else that "authority". Even the disciples didn’t agree among themselves at all times… but my Lord ALWAYS spoke… and speaks… truth. Always.
I know this next comment wasn’t directed at me, but dear Ellderwho, please permit me to respond. Thank you, truly.
On a light note referring to Rev./book of life. Do you think God has a giant eraser, to maybe correct an errant entry into the book of life he filled out before the founding of the world ?
Dear one… God… does not err. While the Book of Life… the Lamb’s Book… which initially contained the names of ALL of the “seed of the woman,” which seed was “thrown down”… before the founding of the world… WAS written before the founding of the world… the book of remembrance… or record… was not.
Malachi 3:16
What is written in the Book of Life… the LAMB’S book… ultimately… are the names of those who PROVE that they belong to the Lamb by remaining faithful… even to death. I said ultimately because… some of the names… are blotted OUT of that Book…
Revelation 3:5
because such seed did not “stand fast”… IN Christ (the Truth).
John 15:1-6
Rather than CHOOSING God as their Father… and DEMONSTRATING this choice by their LOVE…
Matthew 5:43-48; Matthew 19:19; John 13:34, 35; John 15:12
By their wickedness, they DEMONSTRATE that they CHOSE another as their father, an Adversary, by means of accepting HIS spirit,. And so rather than conquer… WERE conquered.
Matthew 24:14; John 8:39, 42, 47; 1 John 3:10-12; Revelation 2:10, 11
So, there are two (2) sets of books… or “scrolls”: the book of remembrance… or a record… and the Book of Life (Christ). How it works is this:
1. Those who are in union with Christ… during his presence… have no condemnation. Why? Because THEY… have washed THEIR robes “white” in the blood of the Lamb. So, by means of his BLOOD… the “eraser”… they have no sin. His BLOOD… “covers” their sins… washes them away. This “blood” is God’s life force, semen (regenerative power)… and “water”. That is why being baptized by IT… is the “bath”… “that cleanses.” Those who belong to Christ during his presence are cleansed by means of holy spirit… and receive the first resurrection.
Acts 3:19; 1 John 1:5-10
2. Those who were NOT in union with Christ (John 5:56)… face life… or, alternatively, judgment, which results in destruction. It works this way:
a. At the END of the 1,000 years… the kingdom is handed BACK over to JAH… by Christ. JAH then sits down on HIS throne to judge… and scrolls (two (2) sets) are given Him… and He opens them. THIS… is “Judgment Day.” At that time, the dead are brought before Him, from Death, Hades, the sea, etc.
Rev. 20:7, 11-15
This is what the Prophet Daniel saw… and Paul (?) spoke about: Christ gives the "throne" to JAH for His Judgment... and JAH sits down to judge. This is the "end"... when the 2nd resurrection is to occur.
Daniel 7:9-11; 1 Corinthians 15:20-24; Revelation 20:4-6
b. The dead are then “arraigned” (have "crimes" read) OUT of the first scroll, which contains their deeds… good AND vile. They are arraigned because while they have deeds good… they also have deeds vile… for ALL have sinned and fall short.
(1) Once arraigned… charges are next brought; their vile deeds are called out. However, s ince JAH Himself is the witness to the truth of such deeds (Malachi 3:5), there is no opportunity to plead “guilty” or “not guilty.” We are… all of us… guilty. And because the wages of sin is DEATH… these should be judged and condemned TO death. But then, one of two (2) things can occur:
(i) IF they have their name written in the Lamb’s book (by means of LIVING the law – which is doing good to Christ’s brothers – meaning pretty much doing good to MOST, if not ALL they meet, for they do not KNOW who are Christ’s brothers, because if they DID, they would have know when it was that they did good to Christ! - these, too, are given a white robe, a spirit body… and granted entry into the kingdom. Why? Because the Lamb’s BLOOD… is again used as an “eraser”… to BLOT OUT… their sins! How? By COVERING them! He is a “propitiatory”… or “covering” sacrifice… not for our (the who belong to him) sins only… BUT FOR THE WORLD’S.
1 John 2:2; Acts 3:19; Revelation 20:15
(ii) On the other hand, if their name is NOT written in the Lamb’s Book… THEY HAVE NO COVERING… so, there is no blood to blot out their sins! Their sin(s)... remain! What happens in this case? They are CHARGED… according to their vile deeds… and JUDGED “guilty”… and then CONDEMNED… based on such judgment. Thereafter, they are SENTENCED to receive their “wage”: everlasting destruction… death... of the body AND the spirit… in the Lake of Fire, Gehenna.
Matthew 10:28; Matthew 23:33
Once all of this has been concluded… the kingdom is then given BACK to my Lord… who… from THAT point… rules… forever… and ever. For his kingdom... will not be passed on to anyone else nor will it be brought to ruin. However, since the 1,000 years have long ended... the rulership is his... alone. His "gift" of having his brothers rule WITH him... came to pass. HE... now FULLY inherits the kingdom... alone... and God now becomes ALL things to ALL... by means of him.
Daniel 7:13, 14
I bid you our Lord’s peace… and I remain…
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
Shel
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Farkel
unDfd,
That is so much bullshit that I can't believe some people think like that. I could demolish each and every little silly claim you've made, but I know that won't make a whit of difference with true believers(tm).
I'll give you a little clue though: the Bible NEVER said Adam and Eve were "perfect." Nor did it say they would live forever if they didn't sin. Read it. I have.
Furthermore, and if you want to be serious about that nonsense, the whole issue was about obtaining the knowledge of "good and evil." One has to wonder why God would not want to have his earthly children know such things. But he didn't. God wanted his children to be functional idiots. The "talking snake" (snakes have no vocal chords, by the way) wanted them to know such things. They learned such things, and the human race was toast as a result.
I did nothing wrong. I was just born. Neither did you. And I will die because of some cosmic bullshit that is stupid from the get-go. So will you.
Your God is a moron, and I spit on Him.
Sigh.
Farkel
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Holey_Cheeses*King_of_the juice.
Thank you Farkel for putting these pages and pages of scriptural quote sand counter-quotes into their proper perspective - that of total twaddle.
cheeses - who thinks some of these posters should just go out and read a good novel.
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LittleToe
Shel, sweetheart, I've not addressed all of your points because in the main I agree with them.
I've primarily addressed points that needed clarifying, especially for the benefit of others, who are having some difficulty understanding where you are coming from.Farkel:
I'll give you a little clue though: the Bible NEVER said Adam and Eve were "perfect." Nor did it say they would live forever if they didn't sin. Read it. I have.
Agreed.
It's worthwile examining all the preconceptions that we had as JW's. It has coloured our perception deeper than we think, often.Cheeses:
cheeses - who thinks some of these posters should just go out and read a good novel.
If you don't like the book, go out and read another one. You didn't have to read all these pages. For some of us (being perverse) we enjoy this kind of stuff. Leave us to our choice of poison
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LittleToe
DD:
You'll note that like yourself, my comments reflect an understanding about the "repentance" often mentioned actually being directed to believers who have cooled off ("often", not exclusively).Regarding Pauls comments about scripture being useful, the context (I believe) is the Old Testament.
Ellderwho:
Your frustration is manifest
Try taking a step back and see the overall picture Shel is presenting. You may disagree with some (many?) of the details, but I think you may be reasonably in agreement with the big picture.With regards to long posts, it really is worth the effort, regardless of whether or not everone does it
You do make some excellent points, though. -
Blueblades
This thread started out by saying ,"The Gospel of Salvation-The Good News of Jesus Christ:Plain and Simple.
The six pages of responses demonstrates that this topic is not so plain and simple.
It is based on a belief system,and ,or,a personal experience of some.As,has been acknowledge by UNDY.It is based on information that has been handed down through the centuries in a book that is highly suspect and has caused mass confusion by the best of scholars pro and con.
So, unless one was actually to get a verification from God himself,it is all about chasing after the "Carrot".
Who does not want life under the best of conditions to be shared with their loved ones.The underlining reason for loving God is the "Carrot".He holds the KEY to Eternal Life and if you want that carrot you do it his way,no free will,if you choose your way,you don't get the carrot.
Meanwhile all of mankind grows old gets sick suffers horribly,most are not 'Christians'believe other men and teachings and then all die! Without any comfort or answers to their cries for relief from their sufferings in which they have no responsibility for what Adam and Eve did to themselves.
And so there is this book written that contains all the answers to their questions that billions are not even aware of ,and the billions that lived in the past during the Dark Ages had no access to while suffering untold anquish.
Now all of a sudden in our times,a few people have all the answers from God and his Book and his Holy Spirit,while billions are left to their circumstances as a product of their birth.
When I asked Ray Franz about the Bible being inspired by God,his response was ,it all comes down to belief and ones life experiences.I posted that response from him in one of my past thread,which you can find under my members posts.
So,your topic is not so PLAIN and SIMPLE.Your answers to my earlier questions were based on the Bible which I take issue with.Thank you for your efforts.
Blueblades
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AGuest
have peace.
Dearest LT... may you have peace! I apologize for my... zeal. You are correct that dear Ellderwho has made some good points; it is for that VERY reason that I had to go to the SOURCE... to the One ABOUT whom all these things are written...so as to hear HIS voice on the matter and let HIM teach me... and lead me into the truth of this... and all matter(s)... just as he said would. I have shared with you all... what he has given me. I have not deviated one cubit.
Dearest, dearest Daddy-O... may you have peace... and may I humbly correct you? Thank you. You said:
I did nothing wrong.
You are in error. You, too, have sinned. Somewhere… somehow.
I was just born
It is not about who we are when we are… but who and what we prove ourselves to be AFTERWARDS.Neither did you.
Again, you are in error; somewhere, somehow… UNDf’d has also transgressed.
And I will die because of some cosmic bullshit that is stupid from the get-go.
No, dear one… you will not. How do I know? Because my Lord has PROMISED with respect to those like you… and there are many of such…
Matthew 10:40-42; 25:34-36
and he has not let me down yet… nor do I expect him to. You have proved who YOU are, perhaps contrary to what you wish folks to believe (loving-kindness is considered a weakness in this "world", yes, so that people tend to take advantage?) But... you are seen... and known... dear one... by your "works"...
The greatest of love and peace to you, my dear friend.
(And for those take exception to what Farkel has posted, he is speaking of the “god” of UNDf’d, which god is exacting and unreasonably and irrationally vengeful. This is NOT the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, my heavenly Father, whose name is JAH of Armies… the Father of my Lord JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH. That one… is the god “created” by religion, particularly “Christianity”… who themselves are NOT merciful, slow to anger and abundant in loving kindness… so that their god, too, is not... but whose whole purpose is to enforce the Ten Commandments and place upon His sheep burdens and loads to heavy to bear. I wholeheartedly understand Farkel’s aversion to such a god; I do not know that one.
Rather, I know the TRUE God… and He is just as His Son and Christ demonstrated: FULL of mercy and loving kindness… whose heart is LARGE… and forgives… in a large way.)
Again, I bid you all peace.
YOUR servant… and a slave of Christ,
SJ
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JCanon
Furthermore, and if you want to be serious about that nonsense, the whole issue was about obtaining the knowledge of "good and evil." One has to wonder why God would not want to have his earthly children know such things. But he didn't. God wanted his children to be functional idiots. The "talking snake" (snakes have no vocal chords, by the way) wanted them to know such things. They learned such things, and the human race was toast as a result.
Hi Farkel...your views always fascinate me. But since this is sort of advanced I'll just tell you that, stepping way, way back...likely one reason for creating the PHYSICAL UNIVERSE in the first place was to get rid of Satan.
You see, in heaven, there was no "SIN". Everything was 7...perfect. Mankind and the physical universe made "sin" possible because you can apply rules to "deeds". In heaven, basically there was just thoughts, concepts, ideas and debate. But how could you actually DO something wrong.
So when God created the physical universe and man, in God's image so that he had moral choices, he put the tree of life and the tree of knowledge in the Garden and the price of life and death attached to it. Not necessarily to test MANKIND per se, but to test ALL including the angels. That test was failed just as much by Satan and later the angels who came to earth to disobey God by marrying the daughters of men as it did Adam and Eve.
So if you really want to know, when God created the phsyical universe which included a chance to sin but also a chance to champion God, that is, to act on what was really in your heart, whether human or angel, he raised the standards but also raised the stakes...for everything.
Only thing, God tricked Satan. Satan probably didn't know about the "Ramson sacrifice" arrangement. He thought he'd just force God to kill off the potential billions of innocent humans, a way Satan had of mocking God's rules. So through the Ransom sacrifice condemned mankind get a chance to stand on their own merrit. In this way, God can cleanse the heavens of all the gumbling angels who didn't appreciate their lot in life.
It's all quite amazing how it worked out. You think God created the trees in the garden to test Adam and Eve? It really wasn't a trap for them, but for Satan. Too bad he fell into it. God will have the last laugh on this one!
MORAL OF THE STORY: Don't try to outsmart your maker. It doesn't work.
Too bad for Satan........BWAAAAAAHHHHHHHH HA HA!!!!
JC