The Gospel

by UnDisfellowshipped 143 Replies latest watchtower bible

LittleToe

Shel:
Agreed - believers go to heaven, entering into his rest, but await the resurrection day.
Regarding James 4:8, which you quote with Ellderwho, the context appears to be that it's written to believers.
That text appears to be more to do with the repentance of back-slidden believers, rather than the initial "coming to faith and joining the family".
Whilst I'd agree that we do "respond in faith" to the free gift of salvation (a response which we must make), it is God who enables us, but supplying us His spirit (of which faith is a fruit).
Hence He proves to be all, in all, in that He offers us the gift AND enables us to take it.
This doesn't negate our responsibility to respond, though.
The eternal dichotomy - God's sovereignty v's man's responsibility.
UnDisfellowshipped

Hello to Deputy Dog and Ellderwho,
Thank you for your comments.
I went and checked it out, and it is only in the perverted and corrupted New World Translation that says God is trying to lead people to repentance in that Verse.
John 6:44, where Jesus said: "No one can come to Me unless the Father draws Him" is a very important Verse, and I am going to have to do a lot more Bible study on this subject.
That says that absolutely no human will come to Jesus on his own, unless God has drawn him already.
Also, the Verses in Revelation which show that the names of the saints were written in the Scroll of Life before the founding of the world.
I am going to do a lot of research into the Scriptures on this subject of "Selective Salvation".
I'll post more when I finish my Bible research into this subject.
AGuest

peace to you!
Regarding James 4:8... I offer you Isaiah 55:3 and 6. Why? Because James' letter was to the 12 tribes, yes? And LONG before James wrote what he did, our Father had Isaiah write what HE did:
"Incline your ear"... not "I will incline your ears for you"...
"Come to me"... not "I will include your ears toward me and then make you come to me..."
"Listen (first!)... AND your soul will keep alive... AND I shall readily conclude with you people an indefinitely lasting covenant"... not "I shall keep your soul alive and conclude a covenant with me to make you listen..."
"SEARCH for JAH... you people... WHILE He may be found. Call to HIM... while He proves to be near."
"Let HIM... return to JAH... who will have mercy upon him"... not "I will make you return to me..."
Regarding "responding in faith," I refer you to the man who said, "I HAVE faith. Help me out where I NEED faith."
This man, on his own... had faith. How do we know? Because my Lord would have corrected him had he misspoken. But he did have some faith... just not ENOUGH faith, so that he ASKED... for MORE. Even the disciples asked for... and received... faith... a "gift" of the spirit.
Apparently, this man's faith, however, was less than a "mustard seed." And what he NEEDED may not have been even that much (a mustard seed)... for with THAT much... he could have transplanted a mountain. But... he KNEW he was LACKING... so he admitted it... and asked for what he lacked... ENOUGH faith. And I have no reason to believe that he didn't receive what he asked for: enough faith, so that his son lived.
Luke 11:13
Again, the greatest of love and peace to you, dear LT.
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SJ
LittleToe
Shel:
Two points:
Isaiah was written to a covenant people (the Israelites) who had already been chosen.
Through Isaiah, God was calling His people back to Him - ergo, his initiation.
I would still agree with your comments that it is our obligation to "respond", yet we are enabled even to do this.
Thus it is truly a gift from God, and not anything that we have earned (Eph.2:8).
Unless I am very much mistaken, this position does concur with your earlier transcript.
Shalom, sis.
ellderwho

Dearest Aguest,
Dear one, I have also given you this "truth" - that if we draw close to the Father,
I have NOT said that YOU said it this way. Rather, I have spoken the TRUTH to you... which even THE BIBLE says: that if you… draw close to God... He... will draw close to YOU. But it seems to me that you are confused, for you next say:
At this point I have quoted scripture to reinforce what the bible teaches. Ive given over 30 plus verses through successive books of the bible. Romans to 2Tim. Withholding John and other verses outside the given parameters that solidify the fact that God makes the first move.
You state:
God WANTS to draw us to Christ, dear Ellderwho
True, God must draw you to Christ..
Does it not say that if we draw close to God, He will draw close to us…
I am speaking… us to GOD… and as a result, THEN us… to Christ
which even THE BIBLE says: that if you… draw close to God... He... will draw close to YOU. But it seems to me that you are confused,
draw close… to Christ.” But… it does not. It means what it says: draw close… to God. But then, you might have a bit of difficulty
... by means of drawing YOU… to Christ. For that truly is what takes place: you draw close to God..

you draw close to God... and He draws you to Christ so that Christ... can lead you TO Him (God). YOU... can only get so far
. And it is upon YOU... to do so. Once you DO... God draws you BACK... to Himself... by drawing you TO Christ... whom you at one time turned away FROM... and left behind
.
But... it is YOUR choice... to turn around. True, God must draw you to Christ... but YOU... must turn around so that He will do so.

YOU... turn around... or draw close... to God.
Finally,
Perhaps THIS time, I was able to help you out in that respect, understanding my beliefs. I thank you for patience
Romans 9:16 It does not depend on man's desire or effort but on Gods mercy.
19 One of YOU
will say to me:"Then why does God still blame us? For who resist his will? 20 But who are you O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him that formed it, 'why did you make me like this?'
Isaiah 65:1 'I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me."
Gods answer to Elijah Ro. 11:4b 'I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal," 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant choosen by grace. 6 And if by grace it is no longer by works, if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
7 What then? What Israel so ernestly sought it did not obtain, but the elect did, The others were hardened...
The Bible is not MY teacher, dear Ellderwho,
I leave you in peace
ellderwho
ellderwho

Undis,
John 6:44, where Jesus said: "No one can come to Me unless the Father draws Him".
That means absolutely no human will come to Jesus on his own, unless God has chosen him already.
Also, the Verses in Revelation which show that the names of the saints were written in the Scroll of Life before the founding of the world.
Paul being the apostle to the Gentiles refers to Israel experiencing a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. I believe what the bible teaches is that it is not our nature to even want to come to God. We will hide in the darkness just like Adam because of our shame and will blame others for our mistakes. On a light note referring to Rev./book of life. Do you think God has a giant eraser, to maybe correct an errant entry into the book of life he filled out before the founding of the world ? ellderwho?
LittleToe

Ellderwho:
You make good points, and argue strongly, but I would beg you to consider the good pleasure of others.
Not all have the understanding that you have - does that make them in error?
The final estimation will be on the last day.
In the excitement of expressing your opinion you may have alienated your audience.
IMHO there will be Arminians and Calvinists enjoying fellowship together, on that day.
What Shel expressed was a classic Arminian perspective, which was later qualified to one that was nearer the Calvinist persuasion (but still leaning a little on the role of "man's responsibility").
I have long held that the true answer is probably to be found between these poles.
Experiential faith would bring a believer to one conclusion or another, since we cannot but help bring our subjective experiences into the melting-pot of our deliberations. It colours our perception of what the written word contains.
If it were all cut and dried there would truly be just one religion.
Alas, that will not be, this side of the final day.
Humbly yours.
ellderwho

Little t,
I aprreciate your constructive insight to my responses to Shel. Holding to a non clavinist point is quite alright with me. The other point would be as Deputy Dog weighed in about the other person your talking with holds the scriptures as inerrant. Little toe, it is difficult to debate theology when both parties do not hold to scripture as authority.
ellderwho
LittleToe

Ellderwho:
Then go with your gut and express your subjective experience, insofar as it agrees with your interpretation of scripture
The inerrancy of scripture is a thread in it's own right.
Long posts with scripture tossed to and fro, interests few. If you can keep it pithy it'll hold more interest.
If you have to, distill what you reply to, to keep it tight. It'll make you more readable - it's worth the effort.
With regards to Shel, you have a better idea of what she believes, now.
How would you summarise her earlier "dialog"? (without resorting to inane comments about demons and schitzophrenia)
For my 2p on that point, it appears to me that Shel went from an Arminian persuasion to "hearing" a reasonably Calvinist one.
Both viewpoints, and everything in between can be argued from scripture. It's all in the interpretation.
I would say that I am probably nearer to her latest stance
ellderwho

Little toe,
You state
Long posts with scripture tossed to and fro, interests few. If you can keep it pithy it'll hold more interest.
If you have to, distill what you reply to, to keep it tight. It'll make you more readable - it's worth the effort.
My posts' pale in comparison to Shels.
It colours our perception of what the written word contains.
Little,
I present what the scriptures says. Ive spent more time explaining what I said, and a scriptual Bible position to Shel than seems necessary, verses what she interpets it to mean. That is what truley becomes frustrating, Not only do I give biblical positioning for different subjects, then I have to go back through it all to discifer if she is really getting the point. ie." the tree of life" I spent, it seemed two days just trying to get the point across of the location of the tree. Nothing more. Not what it stood for or meant to whoever for whatever., it seemed impossible to reason this out.
ellderwho

The Gospel

Share this