The Gospel

by UnDisfellowshipped 143 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • UnDisfellowshipped

    Hello BlueBlades, how are you doing?

    I apologize for taking a little while to respond to your questions. I have been trying to reply to everyone who has asked questions on this Thread.

    BlueBlades said:

    I have repeated this many times and no one has answered it yet .So, UN.maybe you have an answer for me.

    I will try my best to answer your question using the Holy Scriptures as my guide.

    BlueBlades said:

    When adam and eve did what they did,mankind paid the price,death. no matter if you believed in it or not. ( so belief had nothing to do with it )

    Yes. The way it worked was Adam, after he sinned, became a sinful, corrupted, fallen person who was going to die, and he passed on sinful nature, corruption, and death to all of his offspring.

    BlueBlades said:

    When Jesus did what he did,mankind will be restored to life,no matter if you believe it or not. ( eye for eye etc.belief has nothing to do with it)

    According to the Bible, Jesus Christ's Sacrifice and His free gift of salvation only applies to the people who (a) repent of their sins, (b) put faith in Jesus and His Sacrifice, and (c) accept the free gift of salvation by accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

    It's like now days, if someone is giving you a free gift, you have to accept it, but then after that, the gift is yours.

    BlueBlades said:

    Saying I don't believe,or, I do believe,in adam and eve,has no effect on the outcome ,death.

    Yes, I agree with that. But actually, you (and everyone else) are going to die because of their own sins, as well as because of the sinful nature inherited from Adam.

    Jesus Christ died for your OWN sins, not just for the inherited sinful nature from Adam.

    Everyone on earth is born with a conscience, and everyone on earth has done things that they KNEW were wrong, but they did it anyway -- that is sin. Everyone on earth has neglected to do something that they KNEW was right -- that is sin.

    So, everyone on earth has a conscience, and everyone knows that they have done bad things -- because their conscience causes them to feel guilt.

    Why would people feel guilt unless they were eventually going to be judged by someone?

    BlueBlades said:

    Saying I don't believe,or,I do believe,in Jesus,has no effect on the outcome,life.

    According to the Bible, when you believe in Jesus, your soul will go to Heaven after the body dies, and then, later your soul will be re-united with your body in Heaven (at the Resurrection).

    On the other hand, the Bible says that the souls of people who do not believe in Jesus will be eternally separated from God in Hell.

    BlueBlades said:

    Also,when adam and eve did what they did,sickness,growing old,and dying followed.
    When Jesus did what he did,healing,getting younger and life did not follow.

    That is because the most important thing is not physical life. The most important thing of all is spiritual life -- that means having a close personal relationship with God The Father through Jesus Christ.

    When Adam sinned, his physical corruption was just a reflection of his spiritual condition.

    After I was Born Again, I now have a peace and comfort from God which is far more important to me than physical health.

    But, according to the Bible, God has promised that at the Resurrection and the Rapture, all Christians will receive an immortal perfect body of flesh and bones (the same bodies they had before, except they are glorified by God).

    BlueBlades said:

    When a ranson is paid the exchange is giving now not thousands of years later.

    I agree, and the most important part of the ransom was given actually thousands of years BEFORE Jesus' Sacrifice, and that was spiritual health, spiritual life, being reconciled with God on the basis of Jesus' Sacrifice -- having a close personal relationship with God, which was only possible by the Sacrifice of Christ, and that has been given ever since -- but only to those who have faith in God The Father and Jesus.

    It is only the physical perfection which comes later.

    BlueBlades said:

    Perfect life in the flesh has not happened because of what Jesus did.
    Imperpect life in the flesh has happened because of what adam and eve did.

    All I can say is that is God's will. God has set an exact time when He will reward His people with glorified, immortal physical bodies.

    To me though, the physical perfection is insignificant when compared to the spiritual perfection.

    BlueBlades said:

    Again this is for those who believe all this from the ink on paper that has been changed and interpreted by many who say they understand all of this because the Lord or,Holy Spirit told them so,even with all of the conflicting interpretations across the whole spectrum of so-called Christianity.

    I just wanted to state that I have not heard an actual voice from God The Father, Jesus, or The Holy Spirit (like AGuest claims she has).

    I do believe that Jesus has opened my eyes, my mind, and my heart in order to see the truth of His Holy Word, the Inspired Bible.

    By no means do I understand everything in the Bible, and I am definitely not an expert.

    I am only a humble slave of the Lord Jesus Christ.

    BlueBlades said:

    I mean no disrespect to those who do believe,or,claim a personal experience.

    Thank you for your kind comments. I think you were very polite and kind throughout your entire post.

    I respect your feelings and beliefs.

    BlueBlades said:

    Blueblades,who has no belief system,it is what it is.What is it?I don't know.

    I understand, especially because of being an Ex-JW. The JW's mess up people's beliefs so much that they do not even know what to begin to believe anymore.

    When I first started having doubts about the JW's, I was the same way. I didn't know what to believe exactly.

    But then Jesus saved me!

  • ellderwho

    Undisfellow States:

    but is long-suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    Heb 10:37-38 For in just a little while, "he who is coming will come and will not delay. 38 but my righteous one will live by faith, and if he shrinks back I will not be pleased with him," 39 but we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved."

    Look at 1Cor.1:26 .." brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards.... v30 "It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God-"

    1Cor 2:5 " so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on Gods power.

    v12 "we have not received the spirit of the world but the spirit who is from God, that we might understand what God has freely given us."

    v14 The man without the spirit does not accept the things that come from the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him. And he cannot understand them.

    You state:

    That appears to me to show that humans have freedom to choose whether or not they will repent.

    Heb 10:37 "but my righteous one will live by faith, and if he shrinks back I will not be pleased with him,"

    Are the ones Peter is referring to already believers that fall back into sin? when Peter refers to them as "dear friends." Then he later tells them how they should be living holy and Godly lives v15 Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation.." v17 therefore dear friends, since you already know this be on your guard..."

    My opinion is that 2Pet3:9 Does not teach that man can choose God.

    I believe that christians receive the "repentive spirit" from God to begin with.

    Got to get to work write more later.


  • LittleToe

    I agree, it's where they dwell, but I was talking specifically of life after the demise of the physical body.
    The altar has the martyrs beneath it, hence this is the time-frame that I'm considfering here.

    If you want to take it a stage back from that and consider that we already exist in heaven or hell, I have little difficulty with that. It actually concurs with some points I made on another thread, regarding spiritual life and death.

    I'd concur with you, in that we are "enabled" to respond appropriately. It's a gift from God.
    I'd rather take the Calvinist side than the Arminian, albeit I don't have much time for Hyper-Calvinists.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    Hey UnDis

    Can I take a stab at that verse? 2 Peter 3:9 "but is long-suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

    The "us" I believe, refers to the Church, not Humans. So I believe this passage shuold be read with that in mind. Like this: "but is long-suffering toward us (the Church), not willing that any (of us, the Church) should perish, but that all (of us, the Church) should come to repentance.

    Remember, he is writing this letter to tell the beloved to be patient, and I think, to wait for the completion of the Church.

    The New Living Translation says it this way: "The Lord isn't really being slow about his promise to return, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to perish, so he is giving more time for everyone to repent."

    Time does not bring EVERYONE to repentance, but God will let time pass to bring ALL of his choosen to repentance.

    I don't know how that lines up with Calvin, but it works for me.

    Deputy Dog

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    Hi ellderwho

    You said: "However, as the "BIBLE" says, Gods word is useful in teaching, rebuking, etc... Should I, in this setting where doctrine gets batted around , not want to keep in check, a persons veiws' verses what the BIBLE actually teaches."

    It only works when the person you are talking to believes the entire Bible!

    Deputy Dog

  • willyloman

    Oooo, this is one scary thread! All you need is the condensed version (thanks to seven006):

    Moral of the bible: If a snake walks up to you and starts talking, run like hell.
  • AGuest

    Well, I've read all of the comments here... and some surprise me (seeing as there is supposedly so much holy spirit involved), and others don't. Ah, well...

    For those of you who think the Bible is God's word... I give you the following:

    "Sanctify them... by means of... your WORD.

    Your WORD... is Truth."

    "I am the... Truth."

    "And the name he is called is the Word of God."

    "And the Word became flesh."

    "Man does not live by bread alone, but by God's Word."

    "I am the bread that came down from heaven."

    "He that eats MY flesh and drinks MY blood... will live forever."

    According to what is stated above, we are indeed sanctified by God's Word... of Truth... Christ. We are NOT sanctified by God's word "the Bible." Now, I have seen NOWHERE where the Bible says of itself that it is God's word... OR that it the truth. And why is that? Because the Bible... is NOT... God's Word... nor is it the TRUTH. The BIBLE... TELLS us who that Word is... AND who that Truth is. There is only ONE Truth, the Son of God. There is... no other.

    If you cannot see that, well, some seem to think that the FACT is that God doesn't WANT you to see it and that "scriptures" corroborate that "fact".

    Personally, however, I must disagree, and say that the "scriptures" are part of the reason WHY you do not see, for by means of them, you are BLIND.

    (Omigosh! Did she just say that??!!!)

    Indeed, I did, and I will quote THE BIBLE (2 Corinthians 3:12-17 to be exact) to show how it is that I have the FREEDOM to do so:

    "... as WE... have such a hope (the glory set before us)... WE... are using GREAT freedom of speech."

    (See, Gumby, there's a reason for all this "talk" by me!)

    "... and NOT doing as when Moses would put a veil upon HIS face, that the sons of Israel might NOT gaze intently at the END of that which was to be done away with..."

    which "end" was of the Law Covenant... as it was FULFILLED... and nailed to tree on which hung my Lord...

    "But THEIR mental powers..."

    which means their PERCEPTION, doesn't it?

    "... were DULLED!"

    Hmmmm.... wonder why that was/is? Well, it tells us...

    "For to this PRESENT day, the SAME veil remains... UNLIFTED... at the reading of the OLD Covenant..."

    Now, why do you suppose there is a veil that remains? Because, folks keep trying to hang onto something that was:

    "... DONE AWAY WITH... by means of CHRIST!"

    What does that mean? It means the SAME thing as Hebrews 1:2, which says:

    "God... who LONG AGO... spoke to us... by means of the PROPHETS..."

    and we have the "scriptures" to prove that He spoke through that means, don't we?

    "... speaks to us TODAY... by means... OF A SON!"

    Uh-oh! God speaks by means of His SON??!!!

    (Oh, no, you misunderstand, Shelby - God has a mouth, yes. He even has a Word, His Son. But... neither of them speak... literally. Instead, they had it all written down in a book for us to read. EVEN though that book itself records God's Son as saying that RATHER than searching the scriptures, we should come to him... John 5:39, 40... but he didn't mean that literally... because although he IS alive, he is a spirit and we can't speak to spirits... even though one of the GIFTS of the spirit is HEARING spirits... nor can they (God and Christ) speak to us... even though the BIBLE records that they did... but, no, we can only hear BAD spirits, 'cause only the bad ones have mouths that can speak - but God and His Son, although having mouths, are like the idols who have such but cannot speak... but no, we are NOT like the ones before us who worshipped such "mouthless" idols... and yes, we know it says NOT to "beg off" from the One who speaks to us FROM THE HEAVENS - Hebrews 12:25) - and we DO put our "trust" in everything the Bible says... except when it says that we should listen the Fine Shepherd's VOICE... and NOT the voice of strangers... but I haven't ever heard him, so he must not REALLY be speaking, although for me to admit that I don't hear would also be admitting that I don't because God doesn't WANT me to... but then that would negate my assertion that I indeed have holy spirit, because if I DID... then God would WANT me to and then I WOULD... but since I DON'T... He must not speak... and no, I have not stopped to think about the implication of THAT...)

    But... going back to the previous matter (2 Corinthians) it goes on to say, that:

    "In FACT, down till TODAY... WHENEVER Moses is read... a VEIL... lies... upon their HEARTS!"

    Uh-oh, here we go with that "heart" thing again. But, remember, dear ones... there's absolutely NOTHING we can do about our hearts... or the veil on it... is there? No, it is truly out of our hands... (but if you truly believe that, then you do not get the SENSE of what it says next!):


    Omigosh! Does that imply that WE... turn to... the Lord? Not when HE turns to US? No, wait... maybe it means that when he turns us to himself... but then... that would rule out us WANTING to turn, for we would have no choice... he would just turn us... although we ARE invited at Revelation 3:17, 18 to "buy eyesalve,"... but then, it wouldn't matter if we WANTED to buy such eyesalve, would it, no more than it mattered if those who came to the Master as said, "You could heal me IF you WANTED to," for if God didn't WANT to give it to us, He wouldn't, even IF we asked, although His Son said, when exhorted in this way, "I WANT to"... so the invitation is actually moot... right?

    Funny, though, isn't it, how the the passage goes ON to say that if WE... turn to CHRIST...

    "... the VEIL... is TAKEN AWAY."

    But, alas... you can't turn to Christ, can you, anymore than you turn to God? You can't even draw close to Him... because... you... have... NO CHOICE. No, HE... will turn you to Him... He will draw you to Himself. Right? YOU... cannot grope for Him... nor can you repent... but only if HE makes you grope or repent, right? Because, in TRUTH, you are NOT a "free will" agent. You HAVE no will of your own... thus, whatever you do, you had NO choice in it.

    I ask you then, why did the Israelites gaze upon the copper serpent raised up by Moses? And what happened to those who didn't? Are we TRULY to believe that God PREVENTED some from looking on that icon, even though they may have WANTED to do so? And were we not told that JUST like Moses raised up that copper serpent, so, too, the Son of Man was raised up? And are we not told to GAZE INTENTLY on that one? But... you can't gaze intently on him, even if you WANT to... can you?

    Sigh! Unfortunately, dear ones... I cannot agree with any of that. Because I KNOW... that if YOU turn to God... He will receive you, through Christ. If YOU... grope for HIM... He will LET Himself be found by you, through Christ. That if you draw close to God... He will draw close to YOU... and then draw you... to Christ, the Door. That if you humble YOURSELF... HE... will EXALT you, through Christ.

    Therefore, I say to you... continue "searching" the scriptures. Keep asking THEM... the law written in delible ink... and keep seeking among THEM... and keep knocking THERE. And let me know if it is "opened" to you. Keep in mind that many before you asked, sought and knocked there, as well. I, for my own self, however, will heed the words of my Lord:

    "And yet, you do not come... to ME!"

    John 5:39, 40

    I can follow the voice(s) of the "strangers" here... or I can follow the Lamb... who indeed speaks... wherever HE goes. I choose... the latter. Because his voice... is the one I listen to... and because HIS law... has been written... on my HEART. I asked... and I received.

    John 10:1-3, 27; Matthew 17:5; Hebrews 1:2

    I bid you peace... and I remain a servant to the Household of God, Israel, and all those who go with them... and a slave of Christ... to time indefinite...


  • gumby
    "And the name he is called is the Word of God."

    "And the Word became flesh."

    "Man does not live by bread alone, but by God's Word."

    "I am the bread that came down from heaven."

    "He that eats MY flesh and drinks MY blood... will live forever."

    In all other major respects the theology of the two cults were all but identical.

    Mithras had had twelve followers with whom he had shared a last sacramental meal. He had sacrificed himself to redeem mankind. Descending into the underworld, he had conquered death and had risen to life again on the third day. The holy day for this sun god was, of course, Sunday; Christians continued to follow the Jewish Sabbath until the fourth century. His many titles included ‘the Truth,’ ‘the Light,’ and ‘the Good Shepherd.’ For those who worshipped him, invoking the name of Mithras healed the sick and worked miracles. Mithras could dispense mercy and grant immortality; to his devotees he offered hope. By drinking his blood and eating his flesh (by proxy, from a slain bull) they too could conquer death. On a Day of Judgement those already dead would be raised back to life.


    Sorry old Shelby my sweetie....old Gumby just couldn't resist givin his two cents too.

  • ellderwho

    Dearest Aguest,

    Ro.8:7 because the carnel mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God nor can it be.

    Aguest is your mind, different than mine? As an unbeliever did you not have a carnel mind? Or was it just alittle carnel? because you did state on the heaven thread some men have a little flicker in their hearts

    8:14 for as many as are led by the spirit of God these are sons of God.

    8:26 like wise the spirit also helps in our weakness for we do not know what we should pray for as we ought.

    8:29 for whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son.

    8:30 moreover whom he predestined these he also called; whom he called; these he also justified...

    Ro.9:11 For the children not yet being born, nor having any good or evil, but the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of him that calls.

    9:13 as it is written Jacob I have loved Esau I have hated. I thought Easu had a choice?

    9:15 for he says to Moses I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy on, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion on

    9:16 So it is not of mans desire or effort, but of God who shows mercy,

    9:17 scripture says about Pharoah; I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power.
    what was Pharoahs' choice?

    9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. again I ask you what was Judas' choice?

    Ro 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. What about Jonah did he choose?

    2Cor 1:9 yes we had the sentence of death in ourselves that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God who raised the dead, were's the flicker here?

    4:6 for it is God who commanded light to shine out of the darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

    Gal. 1:15 But when it pleased God who seperated me from my mothers womb and called me through his grace. didnt you say Paul had a choice?

    1:16 to reveal his son in me. No choice here.

    Gal 4:8 But then indeed when you did not know God, you served those who by nature were not gods.

    4:9 but now after you have known God or rather are known by God... no choice here.

    5:3 you have been called to liberty, only do not use the liberty as an opportunity for the flesh.
    no choice here.

    Eph.1:4 just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world. I thought you said we choose him?

    Aguest----------------- I asked... and I received.

    1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to himself. No choice here.

    1:11 In him we also have obtained as inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will. Aguest did I choose my predestination?

    2:1 and you he made alive who were dead in trespass and sins. I thought you said we can choose?

    2:3 among whom also we all conducted ourselves in the lust of our flesh and in the mind and by nature children of wrath. I thought you said we have to search ourselves to see if something is there?

    2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ. I thought you said we can choose?

    4:4 there is one body and one spirit just as you were called in one hope of your calling. Did we choose our calling?

    Phil.1:6 being confident of this very thing that he who has begun a work in you, will complete it until the day of Christ. by your theology YOU begin the work in yourself.

    Col 1:26 the mystery which has been hidden from the ages and from generations but now has been revealed to his saints.

    1:27 to them God willed to make known them the riches of the glory of this mystery among the gentiles
    no choice here?

    2:13 and you being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he made you alive together with him. Your theology; you can make yourself alive. remember, you said "for those who might have a flicker in their hearts"

    3:12 therefore as the elect of God holy and beloved put on tender mercies.

    I thought you said "if we draw to him?"

    1Thes2:12 that you would walk worthy of God who calls you into his own kingdom. I thought we had a choice?

    2Thes 2:13 but we are bound to give thanks to God always for you brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the begining chose you for salvation through the sanctification by the spirit. I thought you said we can choose God

    Aguest-------------That if you draw close to God... He will draw close to YOU...

    2:14 to which he called you by our gospel for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord. Who called on who?

    2Tim1:8 who has saved us an called us with a holy calling not according to our works but according to his own pleasure. Aguest, whose pleasure, ours or His?

    Aguest--Sigh! Unfortunately, dear ones... I cannot agree with any of that. Because I KNOW... that if YOU turn to God... He will receive you, through Christ. If YOU... grope for HIM... He will LET Himself be found by you, through Christ.

    I bid you peace,


  • ellderwho

    Deputy d,

    I could'nt said it better.

    It only works when the person you are talking to believes the entire Bible!

    Maybe the bible can:

    Ps. 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right and true; he is faithful in all he does.

    Jer. 23:28 Let the prophet who has a dream tell his dream, but the one who has my word speak it faithfully. 29 "Is not my word like fire."


Share this