The Gospel

by UnDisfellowshipped 143 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • gumby


    Hey bud.....don't get too exited if you think what I think you thought I was thinking

    I was talking about him giving old Shelby an opening for a long long post filled with many wise sayings


  • UnDisfellowshipped

    There have been so many good questions brought up in this Thread, it will take a little while for me to respond to all of them.

    I'll do a couple at a time:

    Willaim Penwell said:

    Why was a vindictive, jealous, warring God that was described in the Old Testament, referred to as a God of love in the New Testament?

    Gumby said:

    How come a loving god has allowed billions of people to suffer and die for thousands of years with no end in sight

    Those are very interesting questions. Let me explain what I have seen so many times on this Website, and sometimes I've seen it done by the same person.

    Some people complain about God, and say that God is "cruel, vindictive, jealous, mean, barbaric", etc. BECAUSE God intervened and destroyed wicked, evil people in the Old Testament.

    Then some people (sometimes the same people) complain about God, and say that God "doesn't care about people" or that "God ignores humans", BECAUSE God does not intervene to destroy wicked, evil people now.

    Also, some people have complained BECAUSE God does not intervene and control everyone's individual decisions to stop them from doing evil.

    But what if God did intervene to stop everyone from doing evil or sins? Then people would complain because they would have no freedom!

    In fact, would you really want God to intervene in every decision you make?

    It's like in the United States, would you be willing to give up all your freedom to have protection from crime or terrorism? If so you may get your wish soon if John Ashcroft passes the "VICTORY ACT" (Patriot Act II).

    People have sacrificed their lives in wars so we could enjoy freedom in this country. Remember the old saying "Give me liberty or give me death!".

  • UnDisfellowshipped


    When I see threads like this, it's like being psychologically assaulted for the umpteenth dozen time.

    I'm sorry you feel that way, and I can understand why you do feel that way.

    I just want to say that I am not trying to "psychologically assault" anyone. I would never do that.

    The only thing I am trying to do is post my beliefs, and a personal invitation to come to Jesus Christ for salvation.


    If jesus and the crew are so good, why does anyone have to sell it?

    Jesus really does not need anyone to do anything for Him at all. He could do everything Himself.

    In His great love, He sends Christians to preach the Gospel because that is His will, and because it is a great and rewarding experience for Christians -- it is for me at least.

    It is the same way with prayer. God does not need us to ask Him for things because He already knows what we need. God wants to hear us talk to Him because He loves us.


    Anyways, I have a hard time believing any of it. Let me rephrase that: I don't believe any of it.

    I understand your feelings. I have love for you, no matter what you believe.


    When I started removing jesus/god and all the gobbledegook that used to govern my life: I noticed a sense of freedom (metaphors abound, not really, but one will do).

    A life without jesus, jehovah, the apostles, the bible< oh yeah - has given me a stress free and happier life without taint.

    As a Christ-Chain, I learned to hate others, myself and be in constant strife. Even when I was a 'good' follower.

    For christ-chain graders: I was not only a JW, I had been involved with a couple of other religions: the messages were worded differently, but the end result: judge, judge, judge, judge and call-down upon others.

    If jesus came back, my line would be: Guilty As Charged.

    I want to say that I am sorry for what you went through in those religions.

    I also want to make sure that I explain clearly that I am not promoting a religion at all, I am not promoting a church at all, I am not promoting a group, organization, or club at all, and I am most definitely not promoting myself.

    No one should ever follow humans.

    I am promoting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

    The leaders of organized religions, for the most part, are corrupt and evil (Jehovah's Witnesses, Roman Catholics, Mormons, etc.).

    Any religion that teaches people to hate certain people, or to judge others or look down on others, is corrupt.

    Look at what Jesus taught His followers:

    Matthew 7:1-5: Do not judge, so that you will not be judged. For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you measure out, it shall be measured to you again. And why do you behold the mote that is in your brother's eye, but do not consider the beam that is in your own eye? Or how will you say to your brother, Let me pull out the mote out of your eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in your own eye? You hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of your own eye; and then you shall see clearly to cast out the mote out of your brother's eye.

    Luke 6:27-37: But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, Bless those who curse you, and pray for those who despitefully use you. And to him who strikes you on the [one] cheek offer also the other; and do not forbid him who takes away your cloke [to take your] coat also. Give to every man who asks of you; and of him who takes away your goods ask [them back] not again. And as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise. For if you love those who love you, what thanks do you have? For sinners also love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what thanks do you have? For sinners also do even the same. And if you lend [to them] of whom you hope to receive, what thanks do you have? For sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. But you love your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward shall be great, and you shall be the children of the Highest: for He is kind to the unthankful and [to] the evil. You therefore be merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Do not judge, and you shall not be judged: Do not condemn, and you shall not be condemned: forgive, and you shall be forgiven

    You have been involved with religion, but have you ever had a personal relationship with Jesus?

    I was involved with the JW's for 18+ years -- the entire time, I never had a personal relationship with Jesus. I was taught that I had to obey the "Anointed" just to be able to be saved. In fact, the Watchtower leaders FORBID people from talking to Jesus in prayer.

    In the Watchtower Society, the "Anointed Ones" have placed themselves in the seat of Jesus Christ, and they have basically replaced Him.

    The Watchtower Society teaches a false christ who they call "Michael" and "Abaddon" [Destruction] and "Apollyon" [Destroyer].

    That false christ cannot save anyone.

    Since I first came to Jesus in July 2001, and was Born Again by the Holy Spirit, I have had amazing peace of mind and peace of heart, and comfort which cannot be described with words. I have had great love for everyone -- all people, regardless of race, religion, etc.

    I will pray for you that Jesus may open your eyes, and cause you to be blessed and to receive grace, truth, and peace from Him.

  • UnDisfellowshipped

    Gumby said:

    How come a loving god has allowed billions of people to suffer and die for thousands of years with no end in sight

    This is the Bible's answer:

    2nd Peter 3:7-10: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved for fire against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But, beloved, do not be ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some men count slowness; but is long-suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are in it shall be burned up.

  • gumby
    Then people would complain because they would have no freedom!

    So a loving God made a people who want to do all the things he doesn't want them to do and so all of lifes history is filled with nothing but blunders that have come from an allwise God who knows every single thing before it happens, who wanted nothing more than a earth filled with people who would love himand their neighbor but nothing of the sort ever happened like that and so he is going to kill all of those who didn't meet his plan. Ooooooooooooh Baby! Give me that God to worship!



    Well Undisfellowshipped: for me; thanks for acknowledging my post along with its barbs.

    I still have a difficult time in believing the bible. The entire bit of it.

    I have not yet seen/experienced anything, to make me feel differently.

    As for christain freedom: these things probably mean different things to different people; as I am not a christain, and do not I adhere to it, count me down as an infidel, iconoclast....or (add your explitive here).

    Freedom: oh I do know what that is now. I speak for me here.

    When I think of a supreme being: I cannot, as I don't believe it exists.

    Afterlife: I don't believe in it either.

    Living in the now, is so important. Tomorrow will come; if not for me, someone else for sure. Having reached this point in my life, I do not think of heaven/hell, resurrection etc., and quite frankly; for me, I hope there is none of that.

    Right here, right now. That's what works best for me.

    When someone posts these things, I suppose they think they'll win us over, or inspire us, but I'm sad to say, for some of us, it's a complete turn off. Really, and I am not incensed or enraged as I write, no...just expressing what I see/experience when I read threads (not just here, anywhere) on the gospel, god, jesus, scripture the bible...and so on.

    Having been on the end of a pointed finger by members of christian organizations; been judged with saliva-spit laddened vitriol, I can tell you, my experiences with christianity.....are pretty damn hard to digest, let alone re-live.

    Undisfellowshipped, I have not see you spout off in a haughty or nasty-assed manner. I'll give you that.

    You're more likely to inspire me with than you are with scripture.

    Being a good sport that you are, and could take it on the chin pretty damn good, I would buy you a pint, whenever you are in town.

    But keep the bible back at the hotel. We'll have more fun without it.

  • frenchbabyface

    First Gumby, Rayzorblade and others : well said !

    I have to admit that : SOMETHING IS RIGHT IN THE BIBLE

    YES : The so called “god” created us on his image means :

    • Sometimes wise
    • Sometimes stupid
    • Sometimes kind
    • Sometimes mean
    • Sometimes proud
    • Sometimes humble

    Who’s that “god”? : As a matter of fact he is a HUMAN BEING and as a human being myself I feel like I don’t need his advices in knowing that he is able to say : He long-suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    Ok … But repentance of WHAT? Being like he made US: COME ON … (Is HE SMART or NOT?) don’t you wonder? If he is SMART then that means that he Is hypocrite and sneaky ! (WHAT A CHOICE FOR A GOD: DUMB or HYPOCRITE and SNEACKY … maybe both!)

    Every creator (as humans and one of a kind once) feels like when he created something interesting, have to really working on their creation to make it better and better everyday to feel good about itIf he doesn’t that means that he is a kind of sneaky : playing with human as cobay … you still love him ? … ok your choice !

  • ellderwho


    LOL,LOL man Im sitten here "howling" Ive openened that "can of worms" on the Heaven thread, spent alot of time but I may have tired Shelby out. I took her for a swim in scripture and come to find out shes really a "scripitual spiritizing swimmer" You know "lets take one verse and jump up and down on it without contextualizing" I smell a little Jw-ism there.

  • AGuest

    The greatest of peace to you!

    To understand where the "altar" is, you must understand the "temple". It is not a physical structure, nor is it one made of up bricks and mortar, terrestrial or celestrial, as we know such. The temple... is made up of BEINGS. If you recall, the tabernacle that Moses had built was made after a PATTERN given him of what existed in heaven. Yes? And then, David designed and Solomon built a permanent structure, the temple at Jerusalem. This, too, was merely a physical representation of the SPIRITUAL.

    The SPIRITUAL temple, however, is made up of PEOPLE, spirit people:

    It is "structured" like this:

    1. The Most Holy, is JAH Himself - Revelation 21:22; Exodus 26:33; Psalm 7:17; 9:2; Proverbs 9:10

    2. The Holy, is the Master, himself, the "High Priest" - Revelation 21:22; Exodus 26:33; Hebrews 10:20; Mark 1:24; Luke 4:34

    3. Both of which are "housed" IN the "temple" - which is made up of the "PRIESTS" to God... the apostles first... as the foundation and pillars... and then those who "belong" to the Christ... made up of Israel AND the nations, as there no longer exists the wall* that separates them... as additional pillars and "LIVING" stones in the temple - and which is "placed"... within the Courtyard of the Priests - 1 Corinthians 3:16; Ephesians 2:19-21; 1 Peter 2:5, 6; Revelation 3:12; 5:9, 10; 7:4, 9, 15; Romans 8:9, 10; John 14:23

    3. The "altar" then, is just "placed" just outside the Holy, but also within the "Courtyard of the Priests" - therefore, it is in a protected area that only the High Priest and his "sons" can sacrifice upon it. It is made up of those killed for the sake of the Christ... "sacrificed"... martyred - Revelation 6:9-11; Exodus 28:43; 29:38, 42

    4. Then, you have the Courtyard of Israel, the Courtyard of Women... and the Courtward of the Gentiles... which, in the earthly temple, are all separated by a wall. This is where those who "do good" to Christ's brothers, who become SUBJECTS of the kingdom and the rulership of Christ and his Bride, SPIRITUAL "Israel" (those who are Israel at HEART... and not by means of flesh) are - Matthew 25:34-40

    *Prior to the fulfillment of the Law Covenant of the Christ, a fence (literally, in the temple, and technically, by means of the Law itself)... SEPARATED these - however, when Christ fulfilled the Law, he REMOVED the "fence" that separated these, so that they can become "ONE flock", rather than continue "penned" separately and of separate "folds". So, whether we are speaking of the "kings and priests"... or of the subjects of their rulership... both groups are made up of Israel AND the nations because the Law Covenant no longer exists to separate them - Ephesians 2:11-18

    So, if you will, dear LT, look upon the temple... and its features... no longer as an earthly structure, built by man's hands (David's son, Solomon)... but a spiritual one, built by God's Son, Christ.

    I hope this answered your question... and again, I bid you the greatest of peace.

    YOUR servant, and a slave of Christ,


  • gumby
    I smell a little Jw-ism there

    LOL Elderwho!

    She on one hand believes the bible is a book of man with no "life" within it, and that it is full of error yet clings to every word of it and has quoted from it without any hesitation of considering the parts which she deems "fallable". How can you argue with a mind that percieves truth as the individual sees it...........unless......they are willing to admit to error on their part and they are willing to take another perspective?

    Shelby is one of a kind here but is a sweet as can be. She holds her own in her own way and is not afraid of rebuttles from others. She also keeps her cool where others would not.

    Have fun


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