Van, Mathew 24:30 among other verses that entails more than 70.
Great Tribulation and Trump
by TakeOffTheCrown 193 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Fisherman
Van, do some research on google about nowdays "jewish" dna. Says 25- 55 percent and greater gentile ancestry from a few hundred middle eastern men and broad european nationality non jewish females that such men married and no doubt converted prior to marrying,
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Vanderhoven7
<<Van, Mathew 24:30 among other verses that entails more than 70.>
I think not...at least when the context is considered:
29. IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE
DAYS SHALL THE SUN B E DARKENED, AND THE MOON
NOT GIVE HER LIGHT, AND THE STARS SHALL FALL
FROM HEAVEN, AND THE POWERS OF THE HEAVENS
SHALL BE SHAKEN:Most people assume the vivid language must describe the end of
the world. But notice that this apocalyptic language is preceded
by the word "IMMEDIATELY". It was immediately after the
tribulation of those days that the sun would be darkened etc. The
Jewish nation was about to be darkened; virtually obliterated.
God, in His righteous wrath was removing the Jewish nation from
His heavens. As the moon, Judaism would no longer reflect the
Light of God; its stars, the prophets and Fathers would no longer
shine for Israel of the flesh.WHEN WE LET SCRIPTURE INTERPRET SCRIPTURE, we
find the same language in the OT depicting the destruction of
Babylon , Egypt, Tyre and Idumea.Is.13:9, 10 is a prediction of God's judgment on Babylon
"Behold the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and
and fierce anger to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the
sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the
constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be
darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light
to shine.If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Isaiah uses such
figurative language to describe the downfall of a heathen nation
like Babylon, how much more would not such language be used to
describe the downfall of the chosen nation of Israel?If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Isaiah uses such
figurative language to describe the downfall of such an
insignificant nation as Idumea, how much more would not such
language be used to describe the downfall of the chosen nation of
Israel?Ez.32:2, 7,8 Ezekiel's prediction of God's judgment on Egypt
incorporates similar vivid language.
"Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of
Egypt...
And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and I
will make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a
cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright
lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness
upon thy land, saith the Lord God.If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Ezekiel uses such
figurative language to describe the downfall of a heathen nation
like Egypt, how much more would not such language be used to
describe the downfall of the chosen nation of Israel?
Acts 32:16-21 Is.19:1 Ps.97:2,3 Mat.26:64Dan.8:10-11, speaking of the conquest of Rome over Israel, says:
And it (one horn) waxed great, even to the host of heaven;
and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground,
and stamped on them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince
of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the
place of the sanctuary cast down. (See also Jer.4:26 Mt.26:64
Mat.16:28)Note that it is "the sign of the Son of Man in heaven", not the Son
of man visiting the earth. At the destruction of Jerusalem, the sign
or precursor to His coming to destroy was found in the fulfillment
of these predicted calamities and finally the surrounding of
Jerusalem by the Roman armies. Of course as these calamities and
ultimate destruction, befell them, the tribes would mourn. The
Jews were eventually left without temple, city, sacrifice or
priesthood as was prophesied by Daniel.30. AND THEN SHALL APPEAR THE SIGN OF THE SON OF
MAN IN HEAVEN: AND THEN SHALL ALL THE TRIBES
OF THE EARTH MOURN, AND THEY SHALL SEE THE SON
OF MAN COMING IN THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN WITH
POWER AND GREAT GLORY. (See Jer.21:5 Is.19:1)Note that it is "the sign of the Son of Man in heaven", not the Son
of man visiting the earth. At the destruction of Jerusalem, the sign
or precursor to His coming to destroy was found in the fulfillment
of these predicted calamities and finally the surrounding of
Jerusalem by the Roman armies. Of course as these calamities and
ultimate destruction, befell them, the tribes would mourn. The
Jews were eventually left without temple, city, sacrifice or
priesthood as was prophesied by Daniel.Clark's commentary Re. verse 30 says:Then shall appear the sign of the Son of man - The plain meaning of this is, that the destruction of Jerusalem will be such a remarkable instance of Divine vengeance, such a signal manifestation of Christ’s power and glory, that all the Jewish tribes shall mourn, and many will, in consequence of this manifestation of God, be led to acknowledge Christ and his religion. By της γης, of the land, in the text, is evidently meant here, as in several other places, the land of Judea and its tribes, either its then inhabitants, or the Jewish people wherever found.
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Fisherman
Van, why did you plaster the thread with cut and paste? All you need to do is to provide a link or a reference.
All the commentary you posted is erroneous interpretations having been debunked by wt commentary.
Luke 21:25,26. More than the destruction of Jerusalem is involved with the paraousia of Christ. Rev1:7
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Fisherman
Van compare Rev 7:9 with Rev. 7:14 vis-a- vis with 70. Only a couple of Christians fled in 66, and according to Josephus, also in 66, Jewish merchants also fled in 66 "like rats from a sinking ship" knowing that the Romans would be back. According to Jewish tradition, Rabbi Yochanan Ben Zakai and others came out of the tribulation and reestablished a non Temple based Judaism in Jamnia. None of these guys saw Jesus (every eye will see him) According to the verses I reference from Rev, all survivors from every tribe and nation mentioned in the verses, owe Salvation to Jesus Christ. That did not happen in 70. The surviving "Jamnina" based Jews of 70, owe their salvation to Vespasian - not Jesus- that is what they say.
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Vanderhoven7
Fisherman
Luke 21:25,26. More than the destruction of Jerusalem is involved with the paraousia of Christ.
Luke 21:25,26 has nothing to do with the parousia
Van compare Rev 7:9 with Rev. 7:14 vis-a- vis with 70.
I did.
Christians down through the ages have gone through much tribulation (Acts 14:22) for purposes of testing or purification and even discipline, but never to merit salvation. See Rev.2:22 where identical Greek terminology for "great tribulation" is used.
Barnes writes
These are they which came out of great tribulation - The word rendered “tribulation” - θλίψις thlipsis - is a word of general character, meaning “affliction,” though perhaps there is here an allusion to persecution. The sense, however, would be better expressed by the phrase great trials. The object seems to have been to set before the mind of the apostle a view of those who had suffered much, and who by their sufferings had been sanctified and prepared for heaven, in order to encourage those who might be yet called to suffer.
Henry writes:
These are they which came out of great tribulation- The account given to the apostle concerning that noble army of martyrs who stood before the throne of God in white robes, with palms of victory in their hands: and notice is taken here of, 1. The low and desolate state they had formerly been in; they had been in great tribulation, persecuted by men, tempted by Satan, sometimes troubled in their own spirits; they had suffered the spoiling of their goods, the imprisonment of their persons, yea, the loss of life itself. The way to heaven lies through many tribulations; but tribulation, how great soever, shall not separate us from the love of God. Tribulation, when gone through well, will make heaven more welcome and more glorious. 2. The means by which they had been prepared for the great honour and happiness they now enjoyed: they had washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb
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Fisherman
Luke 21:25,26 has nothing to do with the parousia
The referenced verses have to do with the great tribulation also described by the other Gospel writers and more than Jerusalem is involved.( "...and what will be the sign of your parousia...")
Van, Rev 7:9,14 are not referring to tribulation in a general sense applying to Christians throughout the ages, but is the same tribulation predicted in the Olivette, having similarities with 70, as generally taught by wt. (And posting the word tribulation in Greek letters and defining it does not show that the related verses are not referring to the same tribulation mentioned in the Olivette. And neither does posting the commentary source. ) Rev 7:1 is a continuation of Rev 6:17 and starting with verse 12 of Rev chapter 6, is referring to an event, the same event also being told in Rev chapter 7, and not tribulation that you describe in a general sense that you also link with Act 14 and Rev 2. That's how I see it, Van.
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redvip2000
Isn't it great to see people arguing about fairy tales? My version of the fairy tale is better than your version of the fairy tale.
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Fisherman
fairy tale.
The horrific destruction of Jerusalem and her escapees and its significance is no myth.
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Vanderhoven7
Fisherman,
The point is that "megas tribulation" can refer to different events/experiences in scripture. No matter how you slice it, the great tribulation Jesus spoke about in Matthew 24 is localized to Jerusalem, Judaea, surrounding mountains and the Jewish people/tribes who would mourn at the loss of their temple.
The GT was an unrepeatable event Matthew 24: 21 and Luke 21: 24
In Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 Jesus provides answers to more than one question. In Matthew 24:1-35 Jesus deals with His coming (erchomai) in judgment against Jerusalem as predicted in a number of His parables. The disciples were warned not to confuse the two judgments (end of Jerusalem i.e. temple destruction/ with worldwide judgment at the end of the world). He warns the disciples that Jerusalem's judgment would not include the parousia (personal return of Christ) secret or otherwise to rescue them. In contrast, His parousia (second personal coming as described in Matthew 24:36 - end) at the end of time would not require talk of secret presence, but clear to all worldwide.