Great Tribulation and Trump

by TakeOffTheCrown 193 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Thisismein1972

  "How do you know that?"

  @Fisherman. Did I say I knew this? and on the subject of Jesus saying he saw Satan falling from the heavens, could you point us to this scripture? Could you also point us to the scripture that points to this happening in the early 20th century? I'm sure if Jesus saw a vision of Satan falling from the heavens, then being the honest loving caring person he was, he would have actually pointed to a time frame, and not be vague... Surely this would be a loving thoughtful thing to do, instead of leaving others hanging. Which is the opposite of love, and just plain cruel!
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  Fisherman

  @Fisherman. You have just made a huge contradiction here. You need to re-read your submission, in one breath you are saying you believe, then in another you doubt whether this is true?

  No, I have not. There is a gap between knowing and believing. Knowing requires some measurement of the evidence or witnessing of an event (you know for a fact) Belief is a conclusion, for example, eyewitness testimony about an event is knowledge versus those hearing the testimony and forming an opinion is belief. The later cannot swear they know such event to be true -only that they believe it is true. If you ever find yourself signing a Deposition or any other sworn statement, you will see the distinction made in the document.
  
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  Fisherman

  then being the honest loving caring person he was, he would have actually pointed to a time frame, and not be vague

  Your logic is flawed. If you do not believe me, study logic and compare to how you are forming conclusions -no disrespect intended
  
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  schnell

  I believe that the testimony the anointed gives about the sign is true but I do not know if it is true for a fact because I was not there myself to measure it some way
  

  If that is the case, I could sell you a marvelous bridge in a grassy shire, with a little creek underneath it and some nice fishing spots. It's an old bridge, but ah she's a thing of beauty. You should see some of the photographs you could take there. And some day in the future, if you buy it from me, you just might.
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  Fisherman

  if you buy it from me.

  I do not buy it, but If you read again what I posted in its entirety and the part that you refer to in its context, you should conclude this time around that you are mistaken about my fact determining methodology which I have shown in my posts on this thread -namely to hit the evidence with a hammer and then to measure it with an instrument. Or don't you think that if what the Bible records about remarkable evidence from God in Bible times is true, that the same God that gave such striking proof could not provide congruent, unequivocal, convincing evidence to anyone that wants it - even right now? I have posted many times before, that JW are not convinced because of what the wt says but have concluded on their own. To JW, it ain't about evidence. It is about relief. JW would not be surprised if they saw angels ascending and descending, or the sea split apart or any other phenomenon you could possibly think of -they don't need it. JW want and need relief and to JW that means vindication of their movement, justice, and the reward promised in the Bible - and that requires a lot faith for JW, that God will keep his word. To JW it ain't about the wt, it is about when will God act, irrespective of how many doctrines the wt tweaks.
  
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  OUTLAW

  To JW it ain't about the wt....Fisherman

  IF YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT..
  

  
• 

  schnell

  Or don't you think that if what the Bible records about remarkable evidence from God in Bible times is true
  

  I do not, and not without reason. The Bible isn't above scrutiny, and in fact has been scrutinized in seminaries for centuries. By historical criticism, it is clear that many books in the Bible are not as genuine as they may at first appear, including many letters in the new testament and everything allegedly written by Moses. (Edit: I should add that it is my firm opinion that if the book of Genesis is not only scientifically refutable but also inauthentic, pseudepigraphal, and a product of multiple sources, then the rest of the Bible is called into question as well and the Christian God of Love has a very real Problem of Evil on his hands.) By archeology and anthropology, it is clear that the history the Bible records is not always reliable and what we have in the the Hebrew scriptures is more propaganda than history. Let alone the scientifically refutable myths such as a worldwide flood (dated at 2370 BCE, no less).

  https://www.amazon.com/Bible-Unearthed-Archaeologys-Vision-Ancient/dp/0684869136

  

  https://www.amazon.com/Forged-Writing-God-Why-Bible-2019s-Authors/dp/0062012622

  
  

  that the same God that gave such striking proof could not provide congruent, unequivocal, convincing evidence to anyone that wants it - even right now?
  

  I do not, given the information in front of me about the Bible itself and some basic science and logic. If you pray for some evidence "even right now" that Jerusalem was sacked in 607 BCE, that the earth was completely flooded in 2370 BCE, that an invisible spirit creature and his armies were hurled from one invisible spirit realm to our world invisibly 2520 years after Jerusalem was sacked, then please do share the results. Will you do that for us?
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  Fisherman

  I do not, and not without reason, etc...

  You do not what? Again, I point out to you, error in your logic.
  

  First of all, read again what I posted: 'Or don't you think that if what the Bible records about remarkable evidence from God in Bible times is true...'

  then please do share the results. Will you do that for us?

  I did and you wouldn't buy it. You want a "sign" and you are asking the wrong person. But my post is about what I know for a fact versus what I believe, and hopefully you will learn that believing that you know something is fact solely based upon the conclusions of others that you have read in a book, or even testimonial evidence from eyewitnesses is different from knowledge. Such knowledge is what JW proclaim to have - ever read a WT a JW book? The proof (which is what would satisfy you) comes from God not from JW -but you can believe your books and you can believe that JW beliefs are fallacious and you can belief whatever you choose to conclude about the Bible, all the evidence and "results" JW have to "share" - they publish. If you find flaw in it - that is all they have to show... Anyway, I said a lot in my posts. I have to mach schenell my leave on this topic. But in summary, all that I have said is that convincing verifiable proof comes from God -that is it.
  
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  schnell

  You do not what? Again, I point out to you, error in your logic.
  

  I do not believe that what the Bible records is necessarily true, I gave my reasons why, and I don't care about the conditional logic in your statement.

  You want a "sign" and you are asking the wrong person.
  

  You affirmatively asked and therefore proposed that God could provide proof even right now. Are you backtracking such a claim?

  But in summary, all that I have said is that convincing verifiable proof comes from God -that is it.
  

  This is confirmation bias.

  hopefully you will learn that believing that you know something is fact solely based upon the conclusions of others that you have read in a book, or even testimonial evidence from eyewitnesses is different from knowledge.
  

  This is regressive, ignorant, and a wee bit hypocritical if you put faith in the Bible.

  You might also be interested in the Problem of Instruction.

  Even the supposed existence of God begs the question of which god it is, if ever named on Earth. (Prologos, an immanentist, and I had a lengthy debate about this recently which I really thoroughly enjoyed.) As improbable as God is, it is even more improbable that such a hypothetical God had a thing to do with the Bible and every passage in every book in Bible canon.

  TL;DR - You bought a bridge that someone wanted to sell you. Aren't you the least bit interested in the due diligence on said bridge?
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  Fisherman

  I do not believe that what the Bible records is necessarily true, I gave my reasons why, and I don't care about the conditional logic in your statement.

  Again, isn't the tie breaker proof from God?
  

  You affirmatively asked and therefore proposed that God could provide proof even right now. Are you backtracking such a claim?

  He does. I can't show you the proof coming from God, but you will need a ticket to get on the boat.
  

  This is confirmation bias.

  No, it isn't because having explained what my posts are about, they are not about proving anything to you.

  This is regressive, ignorant, and a wee bit hypocritical if you put faith in the Bible.

  Faith, the type described in the Bible, is only possible when based upon convincing evidence. (All of this stuff is in JW print and no point in rehashing everything.)

  Problem of Instruction.

  drivel

  And by way of a reminder, my posts show what convinces me that something is true and not what should convince you. More, or less may be enough to satisfy you.

  If you can share verifiable evidence - not arguments, not conclusions, not speculatively based - that contradicts the Bible, I would love to see it.