Is Being a “Manly Man” a Bad Thing?

by minimus 194 Replies latest jw friends

  • Simon

    I think y'all have way too much faith in "scientific papers".

    An incredible number of accepted papers cannot be reproduced and often then are funding strings attached to certain outcomes.

    Science right now is piss-poor BS.

  • LoveUniHateExams

    @em1913 - it's half past ten at night in the UK. The library is closed.

    If you could just put BC's neonate conclusions in their proper context ...

    Scientific papers don't get "debunked," by the way. They get challenged, they get questioned, they may be refuted or superseded or disproven by subsequent research - 'debunking' is certainly not a term that should be used in scientific literature ('disproven' also seems dodgy) but I don't see the problem with using it on this forum.

    And some ideas have been debunked by subsequent scientific findings.

    Among a whole load of backward beliefs, it was once believed that the earth was flat. That belief was debunked long ago. I'd add Lamarckism to that list, too.

  • fulltimestudent

    Too many posts to catch up,,,,!!!

    First it's likely worth reading this article by Jenny Graves, who is a Distinguished Professor of Genetics at Victoria's La Trove University, and also the 2017 recipient of the Prime Ministers Prize for Sciene.

    The article was titled: "What makes you a man or a woman? Geneticist Jenny Graves explains.


    The Conversation is a semi-academic web journal, that discusses serious issues, especially for those who want to live an evidence based life.

    There's also another article by Graves, in another issue of The Conversation.

    This article explains how key genes active early in life transform the embryo into a woman or a man, and that genes active later control how sex is expressed in physiology and behaviour.

    Quote: "But in embryos destined to be boys, the genital ridge receives a signal called the “testis determining factor” at ten weeks after conception. This signal kick-starts development of testes and suppresses ovarian development.

    If it doesn’t get the testis signal, the genital ridge waits a few more weeks, and becomes an ovary."


    Before that process, all embryos are more or less the same from a biological gender perspective. (But may still have different outcomes, a process that is highly dependent on the potential influence of that embryo's genes.

    Once we fully understand this process we can more easily appreciate the wide variety of possibilities in what constitutes both maleness and femaleness. If we do not understand that process, then we may hold some of the "strong" (but incorrect) opinions we find expressed on this topic.

  • em1913

    Well, you'll have something to do in the morning then. The UK is awful in January, a library's very pleasant place to be.

    I tend, to be honest, to be skeptical of the kind of scientific papers that get a lot of play in the news, whether I agree with their conclusions or not. Too often you'll see something presented as BOLD NEW REVELATION STARTLING DISCOVERY ANNOUNCED BY PROFS when in reality, if you actually read the paper, it suggests that a certain thing appears to be true due to certain results but further study is warranted. Many scientists in the public eye are guilty of going along with this kind of media coverage because, you know, publish or perish -- but those You Tube clicks are really where it's at. And yes, a great deal of science is bought and paid for -- the tobacco and petroleum industries, in particular, have long had dirty hands in this regard, and I question anything that comes out of a "think tank."

  • cofty

    fulltimestudent - You are correct. An understanding of sexual differentiation in embryonic development is crucial. The formation of the male brain and the male body do not trigger at the same moment, leading to all sorts of anomalies. The complex cascade of genetic switches do not always perform perfectly.

    It would be very strange indeed if hundreds of thousands of years of evolution had not shaped male and female brains for the roles they needed to fulfil on the African savanna. Those distinctions are still shaping the minds of boys and girls in the modern world. If we want to make positive changes to society we first need to get a grip of reality.

  • LoveUniHateExams

    if you actually read the paper, it suggests that a certain thing appears to be true due to certain results but further study is warranted - yes, this is a good observation.

    But BC's work adds to the theory that we're not blank slates at birth, that genetics is a factor in human behaviour and that social conditioning isn't the only factor.

    Again, weird that you're a member of a discussion forum participating in this thread but steadfastly refuse to discuss BC's neonate conclusions.

  • fulltimestudent

    None of the information in my last post, however explains why I could sometimes use the term, "toxic" masculinity.

    If you object to the term, I ask why?

    Consider, In Australia, in the last two years, a woman a week has been murdered by her husband, de facto, partner or whatever term used to describe their relationship

    And only last week, and attractive young Israeli exchange student was raped and murdered by a young man. This led to a number of protests demanding that the streets be made safe for women to walk alone at night. No-one explained how that can be done, though.

    But the elephant in the room question is, Why do some men do things like that? Is it an instinct hidden deep in our collective psyche, inherited from our ancient ancestors?

    Or, is it a cultural meme, shared by some men (but not all)? When we get in a group of men watching an attractive young woman pass by, what do you think of the too common conversation, often along the lines of, "look at that b****, I'd like to f*** her."

    If you heard such a conversation in an all-male group, what did you do/say?

    No need to comment, just reflect.

    Footnote: I lay no personal claim to perfection, and do not attribute perfection to any other male or to any female.

  • em1913

    When you've read and digested "Brain Storm," we'll talk.

  • minimus

    Why do some men when they are together, act out in a juvenile way??

    Why do some women when they get together act out in a juvenile way??

    i dunno

  • em1913

    As for catcalls, it isn't even a sexual thing. It's a put-the-woman-in-her-place thing.

    I'm not a young woman. At all. I'm overweight, I've got greying hair, I'm broad in the beam and sagging in the ankles. And yet, I can be out front of my workplace doing something on the sidewalk, and a carful of young jackasses can pull up and yell a lewd suggestion. That's not because I'm hawwwwt baby, it's because these little turds think they're putting me in my place, whatever that might be.

    And then I turn around and yell "go suck your mother's tit" and they get disabused of that idea real quick. My aunt taught me well.

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