Is Being a “Manly Man” a Bad Thing? (page 9)

em1913

My aunt was a longshoreman during the war -- rough, physical work that she absolutely relished. She had no interest in kids, no interest in "housewifery." And yet she was as indubitably and as genetically female as I am. I know men -- as genetically male as I presume you are -- who have no interest whatsoever in "things" and are drawn instead to what you'd consider "female" pursuits, How do your "biological facts" account for this? This kind of essentialism gets pretty leaky the further you get from the internet. Watch out you don't choke on the red pill you're trying to swallow.

dogisgod

I think it might be better to say the problem is not men in general. The problem, which is universal, is the Patriarchy and all of its entitlements and assumptions, I refer to women who support this as "Cheer leaders". Their whole existence being to serve the Patriarchy and be defined by it.

cofty

em - Have you heard of the 'bell curve'?

dog - The patriarchy is a myth.

em1913

I have indeed heard of the bell curve, and I also know how the concept is often used as a rhetorical device by those with an agenda to promote. By bringing it up are you saying that "not all gendered behaviors are displayed in all people of a specified gender at all times, and that said behavoirs are displayed by different persons of specified gender in different levels, while some may not display those behaviors at all?" Because that's pretty much what I've been saying all along. The idea of gender behavior as immutably divided between "male" and "female" is specious. BTW, Rebecca Jordan-Young's critique of Baron Cohen's theory makes for interesting reading -- among other points she finds that his results show no link between testosterone levels in the brain and play behavior in either sex.

LoveUniHateExams

@em1913 - your paragraph about your aunt is an anecdote, nothing more.

An anecdote has very little value in a serious discussion. Scientific data are worth so much more.

I seriously urge you to look into the work of Prof. Baron Cohen and others.

The idea of gender behavior as immutably divided between "male" and "female" is specious - ok, let's explore this.

Human gametes are immutably divided into male and female. There are no other kinds, just sperm and egg.

Genetalia are almost binary. Males have a penis and testicles; females have ovaries, a vagina, etc.

Some individuals don't have fully formed genetalia, or have something inbetween or have one male set and one female set. But the percentage of these people is tiny and stastically insignificant. The vast majority have either male organs and identify as male, or have female organs and identify as female.

Males and females behave differently, too.

If you were to plot data about genetalia or behaviour you'd get bimodal distribution - two bell curves. One for males, one for females.

So behaviour between the sexes is strongly bimodal.

Human gametes are binary.

All this suggests that, while there are exceptions and some degree of overlapping, the average man and the average woman are different.

em1913

My aunt was a hell of an anecdote, I'll have you know. She once laid three men flat on the floor during a bar fight, and the cops were scared to go near her until she'd finished her beer. But she also liked to grow dahlias. So there ya go.

As far as the binary arguments go, I will say this -- many men do tend to have a psychological compulsion to divide just about everything into A and B, black and white, we and they, and they do this in an almost ritual manner, like dividing the peas and the carrots and the meat and the gravy into little sections on the plate before they can eat. I have an autistic nephew that's like this, and autisim is a trait that does seem to be found more in males than femaies. Baron-Cohen researched this specifically.

But I don't find that all men, or even most men are like this. Most men I know are not preoccupied such divisions, or with gender differences -- they just go on living their lives and get along just fine with the women with whom they share the planet. And, I gotta say, they're the men who impress me as *men,* not the preachers of a lost cause, or those who fantasize about a world where The Women Knew Their Place (a world that never really existed.)

LoveUniHateExams

among other points she finds that his results show no link between testosterone levels in the brain and play behavior in either sex - in an interview I watched, Baron Cohen didn't use the word link. He used the word correlation.

Most men I know are not preoccupied such divisions, or with gender differences - yes this is true.

The reality is, most feminists are preoccupied with eradicating gender differences and such divisions. And my interest in these issues is a reaction to that.

em1913

I recommend Jordan-Young's recent book, "Brain Storm," which is a review of all the current scientific literature on sex-linked brain differences. Very thoroughly documented, and very honest about what's actually been proven and what's merely extrapolation.

I couldn't particualrly care less about "eradicating gender differences." I'm too busy rebuilding the carburetor on my 1940 Plymouth, and sewing a dress for my oldest's wedding this summer.

blondie

Well, it might be if you are a woman and are perceived as a "manly man." I wonder how many women were accused of being lesbians because they knew how to fix a car?

LoveUniHateExams

I couldn't particualrly care less about "eradicating gender differences." I'm too busy rebuilding the carburetor on my 1940 Plymouth, and sewing a dress for my oldest's wedding this summer - ummh, not sure about this. You care enough about a discussion of gender differences to repeatedly participate in the discussion.

So, what criticisms does Jordan-Young have of Baron Cohen's recent study?

Is Being a “Manly Man” a Bad Thing?

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