The Great Crowd!

by A Believer 183 Replies latest jw experiences

  • evilApostate
    At Revelation 7:9, the great crowd is not seen as being in heaven. Their “standing before the throne” of God does not require them to be in heaven. They are simply in the sight of God. (Psalm 11:4) The fact that the great crowd, “which no man was able to number,” is not a heavenly class is shown by comparing its unspecified number with what is written at Revelation 7:4-8 and Revelation 14:1-4. There the number taken from the earth to heaven is revealed to be 144,000.

    You're still not making any sense. The psalms did not refer to anyone being before the throne and hence it can't be used as comparison. The angels were stated to be around the throne. Are they on earth? No.

    Jehovah is in his holy temple.+Jehovah’s throne is in the heavens.+His own eyes see, his watchful* eyes examine the sons of men.+
    That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne+ will spread his tent over them.+
    The very scriptures you posted shows that they are in heaven. J is on his throne which is in heaven. The GC are before the throne in the temple. Hence, the GC are in heaven.

    Anyway, I have no more time to debate this. Its just fiction after all...

    The Great Crowd!

    I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000

    It probably hasn't occurred to you..

    You`ve Put Your Faith In WBT$ Idiots..

    Image result for Watchtower 1914

  • wizzstick
    At Revelation 7:9, the great crowd is not seen as being in heaven. Their “standing before the throne” of God does not require them to be in heaven. They are simply in the sight of God.

    The WT certainly say this but they are even ignorant of the greek for 'standing' and 'before' or chose to ignore it. I suspect the latter.


    Revelation 7:9: ‘standing’ - the greek word here is hestōtes

    Short Definition: I cause to stand, stand

    The use of hestōtes in Revelation 7:9 is listed under Thayer’s II.1: ‘properly, a. followed by prepositions or adverbs of place

    So the Great Crowd are standing before in a literal ‘proper’ sense,


    The greek word here is enópios: in sight of, before

    Short Definition: before the face of, in the presence of

    Use of enopion in Rev 7:9.

    How can the great crowd be stood in sight of the throne (where God is seated) and in sight of the Lamb (Jesus Christ - who is in heaven) and yet still be on Earth?

    Use of enopion in Rev 7:11.

    All the angels were standing around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell facedown before the throne and worshipped God,

    In this scripture, all the angels are standing and fall before the throne and worship God.

    Are they on Earth or in Heaven?

    Same words as Rev 7:9, but in a different location? How does that work?

    Here are more examples of enopion (before):

    Revelation 1:4 - "seven spirits that are before (enopion) his [God's] throne, ...."
    Revelation 4:5 - "seven lamps of fire burning before (enopion) the throne [of God], ...."
    Revelation 4:10 - "the twenty-four elders fall down before (enopion) the One seated upon the throne..., and they cast their crowns before (enopion) the throne, ...."
    Revelation 5:8 - "And when he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before (enopion) the Lamb, having each one a harp and golden bowls that were full of incense, and the means the prayers of the holy ones."
    Revelation 8:3 - "And another angel arrived and stood at the altar, having ... incense ... to offer ... with the prayers of all the holy ones upon the golden altar that was before (enopion) the throne."
    Revelation 9:13 - "And I heard one voice out of the horns of the golden altar that is before (enopion) God."
    Revelation 11:16 – “And the twenty-four elders who were seated before (enopion) God ...."
    So are all the above in heaven or on earth?
    The great crowd are in naos (the divine habitation - where God resides) standing (literally) before (in sight of) the throne.
    The great crowd is in heaven.
  • stan livedeath
    stan livedeath

    i wonder how many dubs would up and leave if the watchtower did an about turn on this--and say the great crowd will die and go to heaven after all ?

  • btlc

    Well, sooner or later, they would make a move in that direction - if you count all "true" christians in 1st century, some in the meantime, then 1870' onward, you get close to 144k. In 1935. (when was a change in doctrine about that) there was 52 465 partakers, add those who was anointed and died till 1935, add those who was anointed and died after 1935, and we still have 15 177 partakers last year and number is still growing and growing...

  • Steel

    I learned a long time ago that arguing over the book of revelations is like trying to punch the wind.

    The part I don't understand why do jehovah witness even care anymore since all the annoited were shit canned in 2012 with the new understanding of the faithful slave.

  • TD
    Imagine Noah building the ark. Everyone laughs at him. Thinking their is no such thing as rain. They see Noah go into the ark and door closes.

    As a counter observation, imagine Noah remaining in that ark for weeks, months, years, decades and finally dying of old age before a drop of rain ever fell. Imagine his children similarly growing old and dying as they patiently waited for it to start raining.

    More than eighty-one years ago, the JW organization stood up a group of adults at a convention in Washington D.C. and told them clearly and unequivocally that they were the "Great Multitude" of Revelation.

    Where are those people now?? A twenty-year-old at the time would be over one-hundred-years-old today and most of those people were substantially older than twenty.

    In JW theology, the Great Crowd survives the Great Tribulation, so it is obvious in retrospect that these people were not of the Great Crowd.

    And that raises an interesting question in its own right: If those people were neither "Anointed" nor members of the "Great Crowd" than what were they? (Besides misinformed...)

    Before you reflexively answer, "Other Sheep," stop and think about the implications of an entire class of Christians who attain neither of the two salvations JW's teach the Bible holds out for Christians......

  • wizzstick
    In JW theology, the Great Crowd survives the Great Tribulation, so it is obvious in retrospect that these people were not of the Great Crowd.

    Interesting point.

    Here's something else to chew on.

    Their being identified in 1935 as the great crowd of other sheep was an indication that the choosing of the 144,000 was then about complete."
    Revelation, Its Grand Climax Now at Hand p.125

    But then in 2007 the WT said:

    As time has gone by, some Christians baptized after 1935 have had witness borne to them that they have the heavenly hope. Thus we cannot set a specific date for when the heavenly hope ends."
    Watchtower 2007 May 1 p.31

    If the anointed weren't sealed in 1935 then obviously it wasn't the right time to identity the Great Crowd. Which explains why all those ones have pretty much died out.

    So - how does the WT know whether it should be calling the majority of JW's alive today as being of the Great Crowd? What if the sealing of the anointed isn't for another 100 years? Obviously then the JW's today aren't of the Great Crowd!

    This is yet another legacy issue for the JW's. There is so much doctrine they need to re-invent with dollops of New Light.

  • sir82

    The previous 2 posts make excellent points.

    Unfortunately, the ideas are so far over the head of the instigator of this thread (and, to be honest, well over 75% of JWs) that they are of little to no use.

    Heck, I have my doubts that more than a handful of GB members & helpers would be able to understand the dilemma.

  • Diogenesister

    Wizzstick I, unlike believer, have read your document. It simply and comprehensively using only the bible and Watchtower explains the great crowd in Revelation ( which is the one we are talking about, the relevant " Great crowd) is in the naos, or heaven .

    Please can you post it on here as I have tried and cannot.

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