Ghosts?

by KGB 233 Replies latest members adult

  • rem
    rem

    Mary,

    See how easily your own words work against you:

    Just like I said in the beginning: you think you're so very clever and smart. YOU know what happened, or what probably happened, even though you weren't there. These were eye-witnesses. It happened to THEM. Seeing as you refuse to consider a supernatural physical explanation, you once again come up with excuse that they must have "exaggerated" the experience refuse to recognize that people routinely exaggerate stories simply because it doesn't fit with what you personally believe. You may have not read alot on the workings of the mind, but and seeing as you weren't there when these experiences happened, yours is simply guess work.

    Remember, you weren't there either.

    rem

  • Garnet
    Garnet

    SxyBrwneyes,

    Same here, I have always had strong intuitions about things, and also have always been right. Also the same for me when I was in the org. the only one who wouldn't dismiss what was happening was my Mother inLaw, since it happend to her alsom but we both kept our mouths shut for the same reason.

    I am not sure if it is considered a "night tremor" by others(it was not a horrible experience full with fear), but I know what happend to me the night my Nana died. I was awake and saw her plain as day in front of me, she kissed my forehead and said "I Love you", I had a sense of calmness over me. I awoke the next morning and received a call from my grandfather, my Nana had passed in her sleep...now if that was a night tremor or my imagination, then my mind is pretty damn good at playing tricks on me...but I know what I saw, how it felt, everything...I never saw her again after that. My mom said that she had "unfinished business", which some may say is Bull$h*t...but the funny thing is...I came down the mono very bad and was unable to go to her wake/funeral. I have only experienced something like that 3 times, the other two occasions, others were there to see it happen (not actually see what happend, but saw what happend to me, hard to explain, but I think you'll understand).

    Thanks for listening

    Garnet

  • Mary
    Mary

    Rem, I certainly am open to any reasonable scientific explanation, as I was with the Sleep Paralysis. It is YOU who is completely closed minded on the subject---not me.

    Had it happened in another room, or if they weren't present when it happened, then yes, there could easily be an alternative explanation. The fact is, that even though their eyes weren't boring into the phone when it happened, someone can still see out of the corner of their eye, if someone else (say an intruder) were in the hallway and had, for whatever reason, caused the phone to move, they clearly would have either seen the person, or at least heard the person running away, as the floors are hardwood, and not carpeted. The opening from the living room into the hallway is very wide and any fool knows that you can still see someone moving even if you're not looking directly at them. There was no "door" for someone to hide behind so your comparison is completely ridiculous.

    Let me ask you this: If you were watching TV alone and the table in front of you suddenly just lifted off the floor all by itself and hovered there, would you believe THEN? Or would you put it down to you exagerating the experience?

  • KGB
    KGB

    Mary,

    Yes and its called peripheral view......But then the blind don't have that,,,,,HMMMMMMMMM

  • Pleasuredome
    Pleasuredome
    If you were watching TV alone and the table in front of you suddenly just lifted off the floor all by itself and hovered there, would you believe THEN? Or would you put it down to you exagerating the experience?

    possibly not, because REM could be a figment of the tables imagination.

  • rem
    rem

    Mary,

    Rem, I certainly am open to any reasonable scientific explanation, as I was with the Sleep Paralysis.

    Except in this instance with the telephone moving. What if you didn't know about Sleep Paralysis? You would be here telling me that there could be no rational explanation for such a thing, just like Sxybrwneyes did.

    It is YOU who is completely closed minded on the subject---not me.

    Hmm... Let's see about that: You: With the information gathered so far the only conclusion is a supernatural explanation. It is completely impossible that the kids were playing a prank or the phone fell because it was sitting crooked, or an animal brushed against it or any other physical explanation. Me: There is not enough information to say for sure... more investigation is required to find the cause. In light of the above physical possibilites, a supernatural explanation is highly unlikely. You see, my world view doesn't crumble whether or not there is a spirit realm. I think it would be really cool if there was one! But in all of the cases I've seen, there is no evidence of such a thing. It's just wishful thinking.

    The fact is, that even though their eyes weren't boring into the phone when it happened, someone can still see out of the corner of their eye

    I never said they couldn't, but you are ignoring the fact that you cannot see out of the corner of your eye very well.

    if someone else (say an intruder) were in the hallway and had, for whatever reason, caused the phone to move, they clearly would have either seen the person, or at least heard the person running away, as the floors are hardwood, and not carpeted.

    Maybe, unless the TV was too loud . Or maybe it was an animal or a bird?

    The opening from the living room into the hallway is very wide and any fool knows that you can still see someone moving even if you're not looking directly at them.

    Yes but someone could also mistake the phone falling from a table as the phone jumping 5 feet off a table.

    There was no "door" for someone to hide behind so your comparison is completely ridiculous.

    Animals don't need doors to hide.

    Let me ask you this: If you were watching TV alone and the table in front of you suddenly just lifted off the floor all by itself and hovered there, would you believe THEN? Or would you put it down to you exagerating the experience?

    I might believe then. But you can be sure I'd be checking for other possible explanations as well! I'd bring in the professionals for a full investigation.

    rem

  • Double Edge
    Double Edge

    Rem...

    Although there are numerous things I like about James Randi (I use to watch him years ago when he was just a magician), he tends to go overboard on skepticism to where he's blind to everything. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he belonged to the Flat Earth Society. The following is an alternative view on Randi and his $1 millon challenge:

    James Randi's "$1 million challenge"

    Most people have heard of the challenge by James Randi offering $1 million to anyone who can demonstrate psychic powers.

    On the face of it, Randi's challenge must be a good thing mustn't it? There's a million dollars just sitting there waiting to be picked up, and all anyone has to do to win it is perform under controlled conditions the kind of claim we read about every day in the newspapers -- spoon bending, mind-reading, remote viewing.

    So doesn’t the mere fact that no-one has won Randi's challenge prove that such things are impossible? As usual in the murky world of "skepticism", things are not exactly what they appear to be.

    Randi's $1M challenge was unveiled on 1st April 1996. You can read its terms in full at the website of the James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF) the organisation administering the challenge.*

    A quick glance through the provisions seems to show an eminently reasonable and fair challenge. But now go back and look again a little more carefully, this time with the kind of critical eye that Randi brings to exposing cheats and frauds. What you find are some ambiguities that are likely to make any serious claimant uneasy to say the least.

    The first such ambiguity is contained in the preamble where it says, "Since claims vary greatly in character and scope, specific rules must be formulated for each applicant."

    This means, quite reasonably, that the rules for any particular attempt cannot be finalised until a claimant steps forward and announces what he or she is going to do -- bend spoons, read minds or walk on fire. But it also means that Randi will fomulate the rules for each individual attempt at his challenge on an ad hoc basis. And, of course, the claimant has to agree to these ad hoc rules. If he or she does not agree, the contest will not take place at all.

    The second ambiguity is in Clause 4, which says that "Tests will be designed in such a way that no "judging" procedure is required. Results will be self-evident to any observer, in accordance with the rules which will be agreed upon by all parties in advance of any formal testing procedure taking place."

    This means, quite reasonably, that there will be no interminable arguments by 'experts' over statistical measurements. Either the spoon bends or it doesn't: either the claimant reads minds or he doesn't. The written rules, agreed up front, will decide.

    But it also means that there will be no objective, independent judging or adjudication, by scientific criteria, carried out by qualified professional scientists. Randi alone will say whether the terms of the challenge have been met -- whether the metal was bent psychically, or the electronic instrument deflected by mental power, or the remote image was correctly reproduced. In the event that the claimant insists the written terms have been met, but Randi disagrees, then it will be Randi's decision that prevails.

    Not only will Randi be the sole judge of whether the claimant is successful, but even if a claimant appeals on scientific grounds that he has met the agreed terms of the challenge, Randi will be the sole arbiter of any appeal as well. Randi says there will be "no judging". In reality, he is both judge and jury -- not only of the claimant's cause but of his own cause as well.

    With these two major ambiguities in the rules it would not be surprising if Randi never found a serious claimant to accept his challenge. Any potential claimant who reads the rules carefully will be concerned about two things.

    First that the terms enable Randi to draw up specific rules that are unwinnable -- and hence that no claimant would agree to -- and then enable him to claim that "no-one has won the prize".

    Second there is Randi's own objectivity. His position can be understood from his own writings such as this.

    "The scientific community, too, must bear the blame. When a Mississippi inventor obtained the signatures of some thirty Ph.D.'s (most of them physicists) on a document attesting that he had discovered a genuine "free-energy" machine (essentially a perpetual motion device), and when the U.S. Patent office issued a patent in 1979 to another inventor of a "permanent magnet motor" that required no power input, there was little reaction from the scientific community. The "cold fusion" farce should have been tossed onto the trash heap long ago, but justifiable fear of legal actions by offended supporters has stifled opponents." [Click here for the real scientific facts].

    "These absurd claims, along with the claims of the dowsers, the homeopaths, the colored-light quacks and the psychic spoon-benders, can be directly, definitively, and economically tested and then disposed of if they fail the tests."

    It doesn't seem to have occurred to Randi that the thirty Ph.D.'s who attested to the new machine might know a little more about physics than he does.

    Given uninformed and prejudiced views such as these, the concern will be that Randi, as sole judge of success, will never accept that paranormal phenomena have been demonstrated because his position is that he knows on a priori grounds that the paranormal is impossible and hence whatever the claimant has demonstrated must be merely an unexplained trick of some kind.

    I put these ambiguities in the rules to James Randi. He dismissed them, saying only that I should "read the rules", and suggesting that I am a "nitpicker" and "pedant".

    Randi is a non-scientist who has announced that -- by some undisclosed but non-scientific means -- he knows that such anomalous claims are farcical and 'absurd', and should be 'tossed on the trash heap.'

    The real facts are that Randi is doing exactly what he has accused some scientists of: he has conducted no properly designed experiments, has published no empirical results (reproducible or otherwise) and has not submitted himself to any peer-review process. Yet he expects us to accept his conclusions as having some scientific significance and meriting attention.

    Randi says, "There seems to be a certain quality of the human mind that requires the owner to get silly from time to time. Sometimes the condition becomes permanent, a part of the victim's personality."

    Here, at least, are words that no-one can disagree with.

    *To find out what happened when a serious challenger applied to take Randi's "challenge" click here.

  • Hamas
    Hamas

    No.

  • Bendrr
    Bendrr

    Is it too late in the thread to actually get some content in on the subject of ghosts and paranormal experiences?

    I put ghosts and spirits in a similar belief category to the one I put God in. I don't disbelieve. I've never seen one personally, or had any kind of experience. Well I take that back, I guess I've had a couple of "kinda" experiences.

    A few years ago my Aunt Betty passed away. Aunt Betty wasn't a JW and was basically my adopted aunt, she was my [step]dad's sister in law. Never really knew her growing up but after I was out and on my own I got to know her and her family and then we did get close. Well here's what happened. She'd been battling cancer and on Thanksgiving day of 99 she passed away peacefully at home with her family. I wasn't there, I was at the home of some very good friends Jamie and Pat. Pat met Aunt Betty only once, the year before when Betty was in the hospital and Pat went with me to see her. (Poor Pat, she started crying as soon as we walked out of the room) So anyway, later on that Thanksgiving evening one of my cousins called to tell me that Aunt Betty had passed away. I started crying and Pat put her arm around me and just held me. Then Pat sat bolt upright and said "I think your Aunt just tried to talk to me". Pat went on to tell me that she got a mental picture of Aunt Betty the way she used to look way back when, long black hair, very pretty, she had a lot of Creek Indian blood in her. It was like she was seeing her at a distance and that Betty was trying to tell her something about an Easter egg hunt they'd had earlier that year and then told her to tell me she loved me.

    The Easter egg hunt story checked out. I wasn't there for it and neither was Pat. Pat hadn't even met Betty then. And I don't understand the significance of the Easter egg hunt story, unless it was for the purpose of me verifying it to know it was really Aunt Betty......So honestly I have to believe that something happened that Thanksgiving eve that I can't explain. That day Aunt Betty held out all the way through Thanksgiving dinner, once dinner was over she just kinda let go and went with her family all around her. I still can't sit here and tell you that I believe in all the stuff about ghosts and an afterlife, but I guess if there is then Aunt Betty made a stop on her way there to say goodbye to me. Whatever you want to think, it made me feel a little better.

    The other "kinda" experience was when I was taking pictures at the Rose Hill Cemetary here in Macon. It's an old historic cemetary dating back to the early 1800's. I was using a digital camera and all the pictures came out clear except for this particular one. The whole time I was there I never wiped off the lens or smudged it, so I know it wasn't a smudge. And the graves were unique in the whole cemetary. They're the only ones with black iron covers and they have no names or any information on them.

    Just thought I'd share that.

    Mike.

  • rem
    rem

    DoubleEdge,

    I have read that criticism of the Randi Challenge before and, frankly, it's pretty silly. It's pretty obvious that there must be a protocol and a result that doesn't rely on judging as this is too subjective - there is $1 million at stake here. I'm sure it could be improved, Randi's not perfect, but it's there for people make their case.

    The fact is that several people have applied and agreed to the rules but did not demonstrate what they claimed. Dowsing happens to be the most popular (and one of the easiest to test) claims. I agree that Randi is over the top sometimes but the fact that no one has come close to winning the money in all these years is pretty interesting. Especially if such supernatural phenomenon are so common. It really should be easy to win the money! If I believed I could demonstrate the supernatural, I would definitely do it.

    I do wish that Randi would accept all claims, but I can understand that he is a busy man and the Randi foundation is just a pretty small organization that can't respond to every kook. Here is Randi's explanation:

    http://www.randi.org/jr/070502.html

    It won't stop. At www.alternativescience.com there's a chap named Kolodzey who wants to apply for the JREF prize because he claims that he can survive on nothing but water. I gave this dumbo a short, sharp, answer long ago, but he's still carrying on about this nonsense. A critic writes to me:

    Although I VERY MUCH DOUBT that he can do any such thing, I do not think that you did yourself any favors by, in effect, telling him to go jump in a lake. YOU are the guy who puts up the proud $1 Million challenge to all comers. Should have tested him out Randi.

    I couldn't resist trying to explain a few basic facts to this man. I thought that perhaps I could introduce him to a factor that he may have heard of, but has never considered: reality. I listed for him a few claims, asking that he read and consider them carefully:

    1. I can fly by flapping my arms, but not when anyone is looking or observing or recording with video.

    2. I am God.

    3. I can survive for weeks without any nourishment besides water.

    4. I can soften stone just by looking at it.

    5. I can cure any disease, without exception, just by knowing the name of the patient.

    6. I can make a meteorite hit any spot on Earth, on demand.

    7. I can make it rain anywhere in the world, at any given time and date.

    I added this:

    Okay? Do you seriously think that we at the JREF should or would spend our valuable time and facilities investigating ANY of these juvenile notions? These claims are made by people who need and crave attention; we have no time to feed their egos. Often, they are only looking for their names to appear somewhere, and have no intention of ever doing what they have claimed. And, they will not agree to just do the stunt; they insist upon press and publicity to be brought in to glorify them. For example, when he was asked to have a meteorite hit my backyard the following Sunday as a simple indication of his powers, the claimant for #6, above, wanted us to issue a press release in advance, and take an ad in the paper. We of course refused, and he went away.

    We are often criticized for going after only the silly people, the "easy" targets: dowsers, homeopaths, "applied kinesiology" practitioners, magnet gurus, etc. But these claims cost lives and tax dollars, so must be dealt with. How much more would we be criticized for going after the seven claims listed above? Yes, we've had all of those claims made, some many times over. We must ignore them, because they're just so juvenile. Testing any of them would take much time and labor, and at the end, we have exactly what we knew all along: the claim is an empty one. There's no satisfaction or reward in doing this.

    We're a serious organization, not a circus, and we won't be drawn into stupid confrontations. Let them go to Gary Schwartz, at the University of Arizona, who will undoubtedly find them to be the real thing no matter what their claim is, simply because he doesn't know how to design and conduct a test.

    Well, that's his take, anyway. Remember, this guy deals with more kooks everyday than we probably see in a lifetime.

    rem

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