LittleToe,
In all honesty, it appears that what you are saying is that regardless of what evidence might be presented, you would still discount a "supernatural" explanation, in favour of there being an "unknown" physical explanation.
Seems like science has become your "altar to an unknown god".
I can understand why you would want to think that about me, but I'm a bit more complex than that. There was a time when I fully believed in the paranormal and spirits. As a child I saw demons at night - my brother saw them too. My mother always told me her ouija board experiences as a child and how it spelled out "jehovah" when she was not even a witness at the time. I used to experience night terrors quite often, thinking the demons were after me... I was a helpless child who could not even yell out the name Jehovah to protect me I was so scared when spirits came up to my bed. I was constantly hearing noises in the house, thinking there was some sort of intruder. Even today, I still get night terrors on occasion.
Now as I grew older, such experiences just seemed to go away, even though I still believed in the spirit world. I started interpreting night terrors as physical intruders in the house, not spiritual ones. Maybe it's because I grew up in what used to be quite a dangerous little town.
Anyway, as you can tell, this topic has been of great interest to me almost all my life. I started reading about it and found that every time I came accross a compelling ghost story or phenomenon, there was another side to the story that had some pretty valid points. I was always a pretty rational thinker, even though I wasn't trained in critical thinking, so these counter points made good sense to me. As I learned more about logic and reasoning, it was easier and easier to tell which side was relying on emotion and anecdotes, and which side was supported by fact.
So I checked out some of the stories my mom told me about the Ouija boards and seeing Jesus in the cemetery and stuff like that. Seems my aunt knew nothing of these things and they were pretty much inseperable when they grew up. It became quite clear that my mom had a different way of thinking than I did which allowed her to suspend disbelief in the face of facts. She has created false memories about things and still does this to this day about things that I can verify. I don't fault my mother for this. I love her dearly. She was abused as a child and I know that those awful experiences affected her deeply and translated into the way she thinks and believes today.
Anyway, enough about my mom and her stories. What I'm getting at is that it became clear that at least some and probably most of the stories I heard were bogus or exaggerated. What about my own experiences? Well, I started thinking more carefully about them... Did my brother and I really see demons ouside our bedroom door almost every night? I really thought we did, but was it really just me who believed I saw things and convinced my impressionable younger brother it was true? Now that I think back, that's exactly what happened. Memory is a weird thing. Could I be manufacturing this new memory? Quite possible, but when I talk to my brother about the experiences, he pretty much remembers it this way too.
So was I just a fruitcake growing up? I don't think so. I believe I was trained at an early age to believe in these things so strongly that every little phenomenon was interpreted as a spirit. And instead of reasurring me that my experiences were just kid's imagination, my parents only reinforced my belief that they were real.
So now I'm not afraid of demons anymore, but I still think it would be cool if there were some type of intelligent beings out there that we could contact. Again, I now believe this is just wishful thinking, though. I've read so much about alien abductions, ghost stories along with my own experiences to know that the brain is too complex to just simply take such stories at face value.
Now I provided earlier on this thread some things that I would consider good evidence of the paranormal. Apparently these were not acceptable to you. All I can say is that maybe my standard of evidence is higher than yours? I don't know. I don't believe I've completely discounted the possibility of the spirit world. If there is evidence I will believe.
Also, your caricature of my reasoning as circular, while entertaining, is not accurate.
It can't be supernatural because there must be a physical explanation.
It must have a physical explanation because it can't be supernatural.
I've never said such a thing. The fact is that we already know physical explanations exist - there is no reason to prove that. We don't know that supernatural explanations exist - they are only believed due to the circular reasoning that I've stated before.
What I've said time and time again is: Sometimes you just don't know the cause, but positing a supernatural explanation just because you don't know is an argument from ignorance. Causes should only be asserted based on positive evidence in their favor. So far for the paranormal, unfortunately, there is no compelling evidence.
Sounds pretty closed-minded to me, but that's just IMHO.
If it gets you through the day, so be it
Hey, I believe labeling every unexplained phenomenon as supernatural is closed minded, but it's just a different way of thinking, I guess. Especially in light of the fact that so far in history, such arguments from ignorance have been proven to be false. Rainbows have a non-supernatural explanation now, lightening has a non-supernatural explanation now, earthquakes have a non-supernatural explanation now, night terrors have a non-supernatural explanation now... the list goes on and on. History hasn't been good to argument from ignorance theory.
I'm still looking for scientific and physical explanations for some of it, but I suspect that an answer won't be forthcoming in my lifetime, if ever.
Some things we may never know in our lifetimes. It's ok not to know everything. Sometimes "I don't know" is the most honest answer. I believe it to be more honest than making up and answer like a supernatural one.
In view of the current trend of antagonistic nit-picking, that seems to prevail these days, I'm blowed if I'm going to subject my psyche to that kind of treatment on these issues.
I agree I am antagonistic at times. Acually, I'm exasperated on these threads because believers continually act as if they know what the answer is. I'm trying to make them see that perception is not always reality and throw in some modern thinking and facts on the subject. I'm trying to show that it's ok not to know. I think knowing you have an answer when you really don't is quite arrogant.
But on this particular thread, I don't think you could accuse me of that specifically in my dealings with Mary. On the contrary, I've been on the defense in this entire thread and she is the one who has been antagonistic. She has been the one who has continually tried to get me to make up a cause for her friend's experience. She won't accept "I don't know". I think I've responded the best I can to such harrasment. Let the reader use discernment.
That having been said, I generally enjoy your posts
Same here!
Mary,
Rem's smug and condescending attitute on the subject has become rather a bore
If you honestly believe using facts and logical reasoning to make my case is condescending and smug then that is only a reflection on yourself. In addition, you have been the one doing the name calling on this thread. You have been extremely rude to me. I just don't whine about it. I combat your rudeness with facts and reasoning. I can see how that must be frustrating to you.
Even if a ghost appeared in front of him or bit him on the ass, he'd still be there trying to come up with a scientific explanation.
Yes, that's right. But if there were positive evidence for spirits and there were no other natural explanation, then I would definitely believe in ghosts. What's wrong with that? Does my logical way of thinking affect you negatively in any way? So far on this thread you have not been able to counter any of my points. Instead you try to attack my character. I'm positive that many readers of this thread and others that we have shared will also come to this conclusion.
Kenneson,
Speaking of boring, I think a world devoid of all mystery is indeed a boring one.
Rainbows are not any more boring now that we understand them.
Merc',
Rem, please tell us what your experinces are?
Merc', I've briefly outlined some above, though I haven't really gone into detail. Many of the memories are sketchy and I'm afraid that if I continue to relate the stories they will become more and more exaggerated. I've tried to be extra conservative in the relating of my experiences at this time.
rem