by KGB 233 Replies latest members adult
Gumby,
Why do all these paranormal events involve scary negative stuff with no logical explanation or purpose?
These events are scary because the cause is unseen not because they are in themselves dangerous. As for the purpose, they serve as confirmation of, or evidence of, the existence of spirit forces. imo.
IW
My wife had never met him nor had she even seen a picture as I don't even have a picture of them now.
KGB, rem and others will simply insist that you MUST be lying and that your wife somehow has seen a picture of him, or you MUST have described him, or that it was just an overactive imagination. Anything but admit that it really did happen. Rem's experiences as a child explain alot as to why he is so adament now that all these things have a rational explanation and that there IS no supernatural force. Alot of people, (myself included) once they leave the Borg are very bitter when they realize that they were lied to all their lives and completely discount EVERYTHING they were ever taught, including the belief in demons, and God Himself.
Most Witness children are instilled with an absolute terror of demons and attribute every single noise they hear as "Satan and his demons". Hell, I know I did. While I discount alot of what the Borg teaches, I still believe in Satan as do billions of other people on earth. Just because the Borg is wrong about 90% of their doctrines, doesn't mean that God or Satan don't exist.
As for ghosts, well, I've read enough in the bible to make me believe that something DOES go on after we die. There's too many scriptures that have to be explained away. JWs are almost the only religion on earth that teaches that when you die, that's it.
It's an interesting subject and one that can be debated till the cows come home.
As for the purpose, they serve as confirmation of, or evidence of, the existence of spirit forces. imo.
So in your "imo" you believe that when "scary things happen such as Mary has mentioned, and KGB has mentioned, that "these types of things" are messages from the spirit forces saying to us....."hey guys......there really are spirit forces"?
Could they not be more convincing were this the purpose?
I do not doubt any of the occurences mentioned really happened......I doubt the reason IW just gave.
Gumby
Six of Nine,
I was addressing Rem, but since you (or are you speaking for Rem) are obviously the scientist, how could I possibly be preaching to you?
Hi Gumby,
......I doubt the reason IW just gave.
LOL, hey that's what this board is here for!
As for being convincing I think these events are very convincing to the people who experience them.
The question could also be asked why some experience these things and others do not. That imo is more telling than anything else that these events are real.
IW
The spice of life, it seems to me, is the continuous seeking to understand the unknown. In other words, if everything is known , what is there left to be known and understood? And if ever we reach that point, will we be the happier for it?
Are you still talking about whether or not ghosts exist, ......or are you talking about how intresting it is to progress in everyday knowlege of things?
Gumby
LittleToe,
You're pretty cool.
Mary,
In The Sign of Four, by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle a quote is there that perhaps you are familiar with:"Whenever you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."
It is interesting that you quote Sir Arthur Conan Doyle as an authority on rational thinking. Did you know that it was this same Sir Arthur Conan Doyle who insisted that the Cottingley fairies were genuine? Of course we know now that these pictures were nothing more than a hoax by a couple of teenage girls. So he obviously didn't eliminate the impossible, did he. It was not impossible that the girls were playing a prank. I shall demonstrate that you have done the same... you have not effectively "eliminated the impossible", so that many non-supernatural scenarios still remain:
Unless of course, you're suggesting that seeing as the parents eyes were fixed on the TV instead of the kids sitting in front of it, that they somehow managed to get up right in front of them, go over to the phone, toss it, come back and sit down without them even seeing them.
What I was suggesting is that it is possible for pranks to be played right in front of their parents eyes. I can imagine scenarios with fishing line in which the kids could pull something off right on the couch. It's also possible they could have set some type of remote control toy on the table to push the phone off. Kids can be pretty crafty. So far, many 'hauntings' have been found to be hoaxes by teenagers. All I'm saying is that you have not effectively argued that this explanation is impossible.
As for your theory that an animal might have brushed up against it, well that would be a neat trick seeing as they don't have any pets
Yes you told me that, but I suggested an animal may have gotten in the house. Perhaps a rat pushed it off the table? Maybe a bird flew in? Who knows? You have not effectively argued that this explanation is impossible.
As for the phone sitting crooked on the table and falling off, well this too would be a good theory, except that the (antique) table is over 3 feet long and the phone sits almost in the middle.
Perhaps it sits in the middle most of the time, but how can you be so sure that it was in that position on this occasion? Phones move constantly when they are used. Perhaps the last person to use it accidentally pulled it into a precarious spot? The fact is that there is no real way of knowing where that phone was sitting before it 'moved'. You have not effectively argued that this explanation is impossible.
Really, I believe you are adding your own twists to the story now. I doubt that you got into this level of detail when your friends recounted the story to you. I believe you are adding details that make sense to you, but may not reflect reality. Remember, you were not there, so you really can't speak on authority of how things were situated. Even eyewitnesses will have conflicting accounts.
And then what would you do if then, someone else strongly insinuated that you were either a liar, were "seeing things", had mental problems or something else. Would you not be totally insulted that someone who didn't witness your experience had all these "explanations" that did not represent what you went through?
No, I would show them the unambiguous evidence and allow them to make their own informed decision. See, if there were positive evidence for the paranormal, then I would have positive evidence to back my case. It would no longer just be an anecdote. Parapsychologists have been looking for this evidence for years, but have come up empty handed so far.
This is what I'm saying: You weren't there. You did not experience or see what they saw. Neither did I. But I do not automatically assume that this is just some tale she told; she's not like that, nor is her husband. I've told you as much as I know about what happened.
I'm not trying to be antagonistic here, but I truly believe you have told me more than you really know.
I took each one of your arguments and showed that they were invalid and showed why, yet you completely ignore the explanations and once again insinuate that they are lying or aren't remembering the scenario properly.
I'm not insinuating that. I'm sure your friends are great, intelligent people. I'm demonstrating that there are other non-supernatural possibilities that are not impossible and that the only way to get to the bottom of what really happened is to have a full investigation. Going off a synopsis of an anecdote does not provide the level of detail necessary to do a proper investigation. Until a full investigation is done, there really is no justification for assigning the supernatural as a cause. "I don't know" is the most honest answer that can be given at this time.
rem
Well, I think what gumby said is something to consider. In finding out "Why?"
Not all experiences are scary. I think some come off as scary because it scared the person so much. Maybe the intention of the spirit may have been good, but the fear of the person made it out to be a bad experience. On the other hand, some people truly have had bad experiences. And some good.
I don't like to use the word "ghost" or "supernatural" either.
Someone said something in a thread that really made me look at it in a different way. Of course, I'd have to dig into all the threads. That could take a while. But the "practical jokes" verses actually having real meaningful contact. One would throw off the other. Who knows, I'll look for it.
Like with someone's experience about their mother saying the ouija board spelling out "Jehovah" before they were even JW's. "Why" would that something spell that out? That would already draw a person in some way to JW's. Or all the good "experiences" that happen for being a JW and the bad one's that happen when a person is lagging or lacking. Is it giving candy when doing what they want you to do, or punishing when a person doesn't? Some are made up I admit. But some are really genuine. And I'm not saying being a JW is good. All that glitters isn't Gold. Something that appears as good can really lead to something bad. It could very well be bait. Some people even find that getting OUT of being a JW actually ceases their experiences all together. It could be that it was a part of their minds. Or "Why" have they stopped?
So that's kind of what that person was saying on the other thread. It's another way to look at it I guess. I never looked at it like that before.
Kenneson, obviously I was speaking of (not for) rem. Obviously, you could be preaching to him, in a manner of speaking.
Mary,
KGB, rem and others will simply insist that you MUST be lying and that your wife somehow has seen a picture of him, or you MUST have described him, or that it was just an overactive imagination
No, I would not insist such a thing... It's really irritating how you continue to put words in my mouth. I'm not a person who thinks everybody is crazy or a liar.
I believe KGB's experience went the way he said. I don't think it's made up. The thing that is interesting is that when the stories are recounted, they are necessarily abbreviated, leaving out much detail. In my belief, it is this process of natural reduction that makes supernatural explanations seem more plausible.
I believe in coincidences... in fact, study's have shown that believers tend to think coincidences are less likely than they really are. It comes down to an understanding or probability and statistics. So some things that seem really amazing are not when you take the numbers into consideration. Coincidences happen billions of times every day.
Anyway, I believe there is most probably a rational explanation for this account.
Also, IW's contribution is exactly what I was talking about in regards to circular reasoning:
As for the purpose, they serve as confirmation of, or evidence of, the existence of spirit forces. imo.
Well, a phenomenon can't serve as confirmation of the existence of spirit forces just because you define spirit forces to be the only things possible of creating such phenomenon. There has to be some outside evidence, otherwise it is just circular reasoning.
rem
