by KGB 233 Replies latest members adult
KGB, StinkyPantz, TeenYuck, SixOfNine
There is no need for these insults. I have requested people don't do this.
These type of comments (which have also been off-topic and ruined an otherwise good discussion) are not welcome here.
Your posting limits have been lowered. It's up to you whether you stop making this type of post and have them raised or if you cannot and they have to be lowered to zero.
"......I know nothing of how the house is laid out, whether they have pets or kids or how close their neighbors are, or what exactly you mean by the telephone jumping five feet....."
Well now let me give you all the details: you walk in the front door, turn left and there's a long hallway that runs the length of the house. The living room is off to the left with one of those huge arch doorways about 6 feet wide. There's a table there in the hallway, in full view of the living room, that the telephone sits on. They have no pets and they have two sons, aged 7 and 9 and a teenage daughter aged 16. As for the neighbours, well their house is on the other side of the driveway, so I can't see that that's even relevant. As for what I mean by the telephone jumping five feet I mean that they were sitting there watching TV and the telephone simply flew off the table from where it was sitting and landed about 5 feet away. No one was anywhere near the phone when it happened. There were no earthquakes at the time, no power shortages---nothing and it happened in broad daylight so they weren't experiencing sleep paralysis.
"....I don't know when these things took place....."
I told you already: this incident, amongst others have all happened in the last couple of years since they moved into this old house.
"....where they happened....."
It happened IN THEIR HOUSE.
I don't know a whole hell of a lot!
Finally we agree.
This is what I mean by argument from ignorance - I was not calling you ignorant. (This is the second time I've had to explain this on this same thread!)
Rem, get your head out of your ass - I KNOW what the word "ignorance" means and I don't need a dictionary explanation from you. It means someone who's not informed so don't sit there in your Almighty Chair, thinking you're so much smarter than everyone else, it's rather nauseating.
How do you know the telephone jumped 5 feet? What's that, you never saw it do that?
Rem have you ever had a friend tell you something? Something that YOU personally never witnessed? When they do, do you automatically assume that they're LYING to you?? If you do, then you probably don't have any friends. Why do you insist on insinuating that everyone is a liar or mistaken? What's that? Because you don't want to admit that there's no rational explanation for what happened???
Your relying on someone's word?
Normal people rely on other people's word every day. That's nothing unusual.
If you can give me some sort of scientific explanation as to how a phone can jump 5 feet when no one's around, I would be more than happy to listen to you. I have requested this from you several times now and you have provided absolutely NO alternative explanation or even a possible theory as to what could have caused this. In your mind, my friend is either a liar, has mental problems, or she and her family are the victims of mass hypnosis. Generally speaking, when people have these experiences, it's not planned and people generally don't carry cameras around with them in their houses.
Unless you can give me SOME scientific hypothosis or theory as to what might have caused these episodes, I consider this discussion at and end.
While I don't beleive in the supernatural (and generally maintian a skeptical outlook), nor am I strongly of the view that we know and understand enogh of the physical and meta-physical world around us to be able to explain properly the sorts of things described as 'Ghosts'.
My brother-in-law is an athiest and an engineer and not normally quick to accept supernatural explanations for things. But they bought a house that had been lived in by one man for 70 years who had died on the toilet. My sister-in-law (who is a bit more emotive and more inclined to new-ageish sort of stuff) started reporting seeing a shape roaming around near the toilet and in the next room and feeling a presence.
My mother-in-law (a practical sort of person not taken to not being able to explain things) was staying at the time and reported that she'd not had the ceiling fan turned on when she left in the morning (it was winter and cold), but when she got back from work it was on full bore. Noone else turned it on and this happened several times and not always with such a long absence. One time she also saw a male figure in her peripheral vision and stated talking as if to her son, but he wasn't in at the time.
My S-in-L reports that she's felt being pushed while in the shower. My normally placid labrador was left in the laundry (where the toilet is accessed from) and when we got back she'd nearly ripped down the wooden door. I asked her if she'd been freaked by the ghost, but she wouldn't tell me. She's only ever done that sort of thing during violent thunder stroms and this was a warm, clear day with nothing else known that may have got her going like that. She normally just sleeps.
It's now just accepted by everyone that Roger (I think that's his name) is part of the household (there have been many regular reports of 'contacts' in the house) and they've worked out what to do and not to do so as not to upset him. He's been no problem since, although they still 'see' him from time to time.
We've spend about 6 weeks in the house and had no such expereinces.
I have experienced sleep paralysis where you're awake but asleep at the same time which gives the sorts of symptoms (pressure on chest, seeing movements, no control etc) that have been put down to 'demon attacks' or whathave you when it's not been understood as a physiological thing.
So, I don't know. Maybe there's an answer yet to come form quantum mechanics, or some other esoteric branch of dimentional physics or cosmology or somthing... but for the time being everyone just assumes it's a Ghost and behaves accordingly and will do so untill there's evidence that leads to an alternative explanation.
Max
Mary,
Think of a ghost story investigation like a murder investigation. There are obviously a lot of details that have to be recovered to find the correct cause. I never claimed to be qualified to do this, but there are professionals who can. That is why I pointed you to the James Randi Educational Foundation.
The 'details' you provided me, while thoughtful, are really worthless. Just as a crime scene can not be investigated remotely and years later, I cannot give you an answer from incomplete second-hand information.
Also, you make many assumptions that may or may not be true. You assume that everyone in the house saw the phone jump. Is that really what happened? Did anyone actually see it jump at all? Since no one was near the phone, perhaps they just heard it fall and assumed it jumped. Or maybe one person saw it move from the corner of their eye and the rest just heard it. There are several scenarios and to just assume everyone in the house saw it can lead to an incorrect conclusion.
Perhaps there was a physical intruder in the house? Maybe an animal got in? Maybe the last person to use the phone or someone walking by accidentally put the phone in a precarious position so that it was inevitable that it would have fallen later? Maybe one of the kids is playing pranks on their credulous parents? I know I did that to my mom when I was a kid.*
The 'where' and 'when' questions were regarding geographic location and time of year and stuff like that. I hope you don't think I'm trying to worm my way out of providing an explanation (not that I ever volunteered to anyway), but as you can see, it's impossible for me to come up with anything conclusive with such little information.
Rem, get your head out of your ass - I KNOW what the word "ignorance" means and I don't need a dictionary explanation from you. It means someone who's not informed so don't sit there in your Almighty Chair, thinking you're so much smarter than everyone else, it's rather nauseating.
Look, I know you know what the word 'ignorance' means, but you are still misunderstanding what I meant by argument from ignorance. I suggest you read my post again as I could not have been any clearer. In the context I said it it has nothing to do with someone who's not informed, so your constant glossing over this point is rather nauseating to me. Just for emphasis, here is your argument from ignorance, which is fallacious reasoning:
Since we don't currently have a rational explanation for what happened, the only alternative is a supernatural explanation.
I do not think you are ignorant or uninformed at all. I just think you are using a fallacious argument as a basis for your belief in the supernatural. This argument happens to be... drum roll... an argument from ignorance. You are using our combined ignorance, or lack of knowledge, (yours and mine) of all of the facts to support your argument. How can I be in my Almighty Chair when I'm admitting my ignorance as well?
Rem have you ever had a friend tell you something? Something that YOU personally never witnessed? When they do, do you automatically assume that they're LYING to you?? If you do, then you probably don't have any friends. Why do you insist on insinuating that everyone is a liar or mistaken? What's that? Because you don't want to admit that there's no rational explanation for what happened???
This is an interesting point. It is true that when close friends tell you something, there is normally no reason to doubt them. But there is a limit to this trust, if you can call it that. The rule of thumb is: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If my friend were to tell me he got in a car accident the day before, I would surely believe him. If he were to tell me he was bitten by a shark the day before (and he lives in Kansas), I would be less likely to believe such an extraordinary claim without good evidence because shark bites are extremely rare and there are no sharks that I know of in Kansas. I would think he was pulling my leg unless he showed me the wound and could explain the situation or something.
The reason I'm very skeptical of paranormal claims by sincere people is because I have read much about psychological illusions and how complex and strange the brain and memory are. This doesn't mean people are crazy, but it is extremely easy for people to be mistaken in their perseptions. This is proven by decades of lab tests. The human mind does not present an objective view of reality. There are so many examples I could give, but it would probably be better if you just read the books to get the full flavor of the implications of these psychological illusions. I think people who sincerely believe there is no rational explanation for such phenomenon are engaging in wishful thinking. They are the ones who need some type of confirmation of a spirit world and all events extraordinary or not seem to be colored by those expectations.
Normal people rely on other people's word every day. That's nothing unusual
It's not unusual that relying on someone's word can be a mistake, either.
If you can give me some sort of scientific explanation as to how a phone can jump 5 feet when no one's around, I would be more than happy to listen to you.
I have provided some possibilities above, all much more likely than a supernatural explanation. I think the issue you have is that you assume the events happened exactly as you describe them without any critical investigation. You assume that the phone actually lifted off the table and moved 5 feet away without any outside influence. This is quite a leap of faith based on the scant information at hand. All we really know is that someone observed (not sure if they saw or heard or both) the phone in one location and then observed it in another location some time later. I doubt the observer was staring intently at the phone anticipating its movement, so there was most probably a time that the observer(s)' attention was diverted from the phone. The movement happened at this time.
Just like a crime scene, there are many details that need to be flushed out, and a quick synopsis of the event can lead to a very incorrect interpretation - especially if the story has been told many times over the years. This is the nature of human memory.
Unless you can give me SOME scientific hypothosis or theory as to what might have caused these episodes
As stated above, it is not necessary for me to provide a scientific hypothesis of how a phone can jump 5 feet without any outside influence because you have not proven that that actually happened. At most you've demonstrated that a phone moved and one or more persons partially observed it. I have provided alternate explanations that may or may not be correct because I do not know the details of the event.
Here are some books that expand on the human brain and memory. The type of psychological illusions that are possible are quite amazing and lead to interesting, though incorrect, perceptions:
rem
*My brother an I used to have this old camera with a flashbulb when we were kids. My mom was always extremely fascinated by storms and lightening, so whenever there was a storm, we would flash the camera into the window when she was not looking. She really thought it was a close lightening strike because of the brightness of the flash even though there was no thunder. Her strong belief that it was really lightening was not shaken by the fact that lightening that close will always be acompanied by thunder. She was able to believe in something that wasn't real because it was real to her, even though it broke the laws of physics.
Rem...
The reason I'm very skeptical of paranormal claims by sincere people is because I have read much about psychological illusions and how complex and strange the brain and memory are
And there lies the 'problem' of this 3-day conversation of both sides talking past each other. Your beliefs are based on what you have read, others beliefs are based on what they have experienced. You have not walked in their shoes and you have not experienced what they have, which by the way is more convencing of an argument than mere belief from reading. It is obvious that you are very intelligent and articulate, however reading your posts reminds me of some Watchtowers I've read - they supposedly ask an open-ended question, then turn around and stick it to you by indicating how wrong something is. I've never been a dub, but my dub friend just gave me another Watchtower and reading the logic in it is laughable.
Also, you mention the James Randi Foundation.... that organization of skeptics is in itself suspect. He claims to have $1,000,000 put up for anyone who can prove there is life after death. That sounds good, yet, when challenged to have a scientific study with controls in place and the $1,000,000 put into escrow he balked.
By the way, there was a funded scientific study done in Arizona last year which validates most of what the true psychics have been saying - there's more to human existence than what is in this physical realm where we are limited by what we can see and feel.
Double Edge,
You are wrong on all counts. I have read much on this topic because I have experienced strange things in my lifetime. I have said this many times before.
Also, there is no need to put the James Randi money in escrow, it is already guranteed and funded and is in no way controlled by James Randi - it's not his money. Your claim is baseless and absurd. Please provide evidence if you would like to continue down this line. I'm pretty familiar with the various claims that have applied for the $1 million challenge.
The experiments in Arizona are highly suspect and have been shown to be inconclusive at best and shoddy at worst. This is explained in the various books I recommended. This is why augmenting your experiences with reading is important. Again, if you would like to go into more detail, I'd be happy to hear your evidence and I will present mine. I'm quite familiar with this research as well.
rem
Well, I didn't believe in angels until I saw Nickey's avatar!
rem
The experiments in Arizona are highly suspect and have been shown to be inconclusive at best and shoddy at worst
Can you explain... what were the experiments, why are they suspect and who or what paper said so (or is it your own biased opinion that makes them so).
You are wrong on all counts.
That is your opinion... my opinion >>>> you are wrong on most counts.
I think the ghosts must have possessed some of the minds of posters on this thread.....
keep it up...haven't laughed so much for ages
I'd be happy to hear your evidence
My evidences are from my own experience, but like I said, this is the LAST place I would post something as personal as what I've experienced. To those who haven't experience, there is no 'evidence'; to those who have experienced, there is no doubt.
