84 Lumber Commercial

by azor 236 Replies latest jw friends

  • never a jw
    never a jw

    It is quite amazing how easily people are willing to ignore their own principles. Most reasonable people in the planet would agree that laws are necessary for an orderly society, and yet so many either get offended by, or disregard the mentioning of the word "Illegal" when referring to most of the immigration going on between the borders of the U.S. and Mexico. In fact, it should be enough to say "It's illegal" to end the debate. But people who use this argument are demonized and called bigots. Strange times!

  • never a jw
    never a jw

    Simon: it's all about whether it pays a decent wage.

    Who gets to say what's a decent wage. It's not about "decent" wages. It's about American companies staying alive, even competitive, in a global economy. That's why companies who stay in the U.S. have to get cheap labor from illegal immigrants. It's Adam Smith invisible hand always at work in a free market economy. American workers have to get used to the new world order or get a rude awakening. Voting for Trump got them a short break only. The invisible hand can't be contained for long.

    Simon :I presume illegal immigrants don't [pay taxes]?

    No good numbers on that, but many, possibly most illegal aliens pay income taxes in proportion to their low wages. They also are consumers and pay sales tax and pay property taxes through their landlords. So, the answer is many illegal aliens don't get a tax free ride.

  • Simon

    The invisible hand applies within a market, governments can define the boundaries of those markets.

    There is never true globalization because jobs sent overseas don't come with the employment protections, healthcare coverage and such. It's really discounted wages and little else in terms of responsibility for many of these companies. i.e. the market is warped.

    IMO it comes back to reasonable pay all round - the rot set in with Reagan when CEO pay started vastly outpacing average worker pay in terms of multiples. Now you have individuals taking an ever increasing share of the pot and enjoying extreme wealth at the expense of the majority of workers.

    It's not that market forces can't or don't work, it's more that there are no constraints and people at the top get rewarded even for failure - they can run a company into the ground and still walk away with hundreds of millions of dollars.

    And the rest of us worry about Mexicans coming to pick fruit ...

  • never a jw
    never a jw

    We don't live in a perfect global free market, but we keep moving in that direction, and more and more the Chinese worker is getting better wages at the expense of the American worker's wages (for example). This movement will only stop with national isolationist policies, or in a free market, when the workers in China reach the same economic level as the American workers, all other things being equal. It's the invisible hand!

    Regarding people at the top, I still believe is the invisible hand, but certainly a glitch of the free market that runs the risk of collapsing the economic system when the wealth is concentrated in few hands. That's why most nations have progressive taxation, to reduce that risk.

  • azor

    Never a JW. Point to a single instance here where someone called someone else a bigot for referring to someone as illegal. This post and that commercial is about the wall. I for one believe that illegal immigration needs addressing. The wall is not the way.

    Bigotry is demonstrated by the use of derogatory terms like "wetback" by those that support the building of that wall. The equating of migrants looking for a better life for themselves and their children to thieves. I contend that the more you dig into the reasons someone supports the wall the more bigotry you'll find.

  • sir82

    (I presume illegal immigrants don't?).

    Most undocumented immigrants certainly DO pay taxes. There is a booming industry in the USA in procuring / selling unused Social Security Numbers (illegal of course), which are a requirement for most types of employment. If you have a SSN, you & your employer pay into the Social Security fund via taxes.

    In fact, one of the unthought-of consequences of Trump's ban, if he succeeds in doing everything he would like, is a tremendous hit on the US Social Security funds.

    Undocumented workers pay millions into the fund, but virtually never reap the benefits of those taxes paid.

    They are, in effect, helping to prop up Social Security. Remove millions of them, and that prop collapses.

    Of course, there are far more consequential matters related to immigration control. As I noted, this is just one of many consequences that Herr Donald is completely oblivious to.

  • Jehalapeno

    sir82: I notice how you have no problem declaring selling Social Security Numbers illegal. You shouldn't use that term. Those Social Security Numbers are not illegal...that's dehumanizing. They're undocumented numbers.

  • Simon

    I don't understand the sensitivity over the word "illegal". If anything has legal requirements then complying with them is defined "legal" and failing to comply would therefore make it "illegal".

    Isn't it that simple? People enter the country legally, through the official methods complying with the law, or they don't.

    I always wondered about taxes and other civic services but still don't quite understand how people can sign-up for things as an illegal immigrant and not just be caught and deported. Is that what Obama was doing? Something like 2/3rd had done nothing criminal (I guess other than stealing social security numbers and entering the country?)

    Aren't other people impacted if social security numbers are being stolen and re-used?

  • sir82

    I notice how you have no problem declaring selling Social Security Numbers illegal. You shouldn't use that term. Those Social Security Numbers are not illegal...that's dehumanizing. They're undocumented numbers.

    Theft is illegal....people are not.

  • pbrow

    Sir... not sure what your argument is...

    people who take other peoples property are stealing...

    people who cross legal boundaries are illegal immigrants...

    both groups are people. both groups are doing something illegal


Share this