by Ravyn 210 Replies latest members adult
Who is it that is so damn insistent that everything be proved, or otherwise it's irrelevant gibberish? AlanF.
Gentlemen, I ask you to prove this case, or otherwise simply admit that it's nothing more than your personal opinion, and your selected method, that dictates your behavior on this discussion board. -- onacruse
You're doing very well, Craig. keep it up.
tj ~ who loves it when people are forced to live by their own standards!
Ray Franz does not discuss, debate, or converse on this (or any, to my knowledge) discussion board. He writes books. His gentle style is just the touch, I must admit. But authoring books is a far different medium than discussing. -- SixofNine
Good point. But do you really think that, if he did post on a db, that he would change his style? I have the feeling that the same quiet, rational, just-the-facts-Ma'm style would do well ANYWHERE... and be just as thoroughly effective. It's what makes Gamaliel, Maximus, TMS, Rational Witness and several others I can't think of right now soooo very persuasive... and not an unkind word between them.
But your assertion that "harsh" techniques are effective deserves, nay, even demands, that some kind of evidence be put up on the table to support your claim.
Two points:
"The fact remains that there is no way (at least that I know of) to quantitatively evaluate which "method" is more effective. " So I would never attempt it or ask anyone for such evidence.... it would just be silly.
Also, I haven't really gone to bat here for "harsh techniques" (notice the "techniques" added to the ellipses). I've gone to bat for AlanF's effectiveness, and I think it's second to none (See above).
The third of my two points is this; sometimes the truth is simply harsh relative to the desire of the hearer for it to be something else.
Six~ do the math class
But do you really think that, if he did post on a db, that he would change his style?
Likely at first, yes. Then I suspect he'd realise it's not the place for him, and take leave.
It's what makes Gamaliel, Maximus, TMS, Rational Witness and several others I can't think of right now soooo very persuasive... and not an unkind word between them.
All people I've enjoyed reading immensely over time, but I don't have any clue as to how they do relative to this discussion. Mostly, they seem to stay out of it, and good on 'em!
Six, thank you for bearing with me here, and Alan, thank you for being a dear friend who will understand how I mean this:
I've gone to bat for AlanF's effectiveness
That is a simple and clearcut statement that you think "Alan's" technique is effective. You called it "notches on his holster."
What do you really know? How many people has Alan "converted"? How many has he converted using "harsh" techniques vs. "kind" techniques? For that matter, do you even have a clue about how many people little ol onacruse is "converting" using little ol onacruse's measely methods?
Man, I feel like I'm being a real jerk here. But, you, dear Six, have shown me the respect to ask in-my-face questions, and I feel obliged to show you the same respect in return. I very honestly would appreciate your flat-out, no-holds-barred, call-Craig-a-bonehead-if-that's-warranted answer.
Craig
you know this is wild....when I started this thread I was thinking of Northerngirl's assertion that because we did not put up with her insulting trollness that she could not get 'honest' discourse here...hmmmm guess there is a whole big world out there that I did not even know about.....
I am overwhelmed that the big guns of JWD have come out to play in my back yard! I am humbled.
well maybe not humbled. (gotta be brutally honest here!)
Ravyn
We're talking about efficacy of technique, a subject with which you are very familiar. So, if I may ask, what percentage of the many people you've helped to recuperate from a traumatic experience were helped because you used "kind" technique, as compared to "harsh" technique? Or, perhaps, a weighted ratio of the two?
((((((((Craig))))))) btw- thanks for saying I helped you- I truly have no idea how I contributed which kinda supports my thoughts here.
There really is no way to measure this kind of thing and I truly believe the person having been "helped" couldn't quantify it precisely either. One could point to certain things they remember or things which stand out in their mind, but again, those things may stand out for many other reasons; including the fact that they helped at that particular moment.
There are some folks who work well with harsh- it's what they need. But that doesn't mean that the other "stuff" they have read isn't absorbed and works in it's own way too.
I'll give you an example. I was a member and moderator on a db meant for healing for people dealing with someone in their lives with a serious mental disorder which is insidiously damaging to the "nons" mentally, emotionally, spiritually and physically. Some of the folks who were there had spouses to deal with who had the disorder and were staying and trying to work it out. Others were trying to get the knowledge and the courage to leave and others had no choice because the loved one with the disorder was a parent, child or sibling.
There was one woman I remember in particular who had been married to her "disordered" husband for over 15 years and the conditioning was deep and the abuse was obvious. She would post and vent and receive a great deal of knowledge, advice and support. And she'd come back time after time with the same type of situation happening over and over again. She posted like this for over a year. For a while I couldn't even respond to her posts anymore because she was "stuck" and it was clear that at that time she was more comforable there. For me to add anything more would have, in my mind been coddling her and I just didn't wish to participate in that.
One day she posted something and I responded with what would be considered for the sake of this discussion as "harsh". It started out with "LOOK !!" and continued on from there. I received an email from her after that, thanking me for "waking her up". Six months later she had left her husband and gotten herself out.
Now, to make a long story longer- should that success be attributed to me? Hardly. My post may have merely been the two-by-four which opened the door that let all of the previous information in through that final door. But opening the door was not the big deal there- it's the combination of all the rest of it that had been working subconsciously the entire time. The hugs, the support, the clinical information, the advice, the similar stories etc., is what helped her in the long run.
Now if you asked her- she may quantify it differently because of the "lightbulb" moment but her assessment wouldn't be accurate either.
Like Ray Franz's book- it may be the catalyst for many and the real solid- "yeah, I'm not doing this anymore" moment but there is alot of work done after that with contributions by many that are not measurable. It's a collective effort.
LOL- we could have an "HC" "Healing Committee" somewhat like the JC's- "Where were you when you were truly helped?" "Who was it that helped you" "Are you sure you weren't helped in some way by some of the harshness along the way?" "Were you wearing a thong?" "How many hugs did you receive?" "Were you wearing a thong when you received these hugs?" "Did the penis warmers help you in any way?" "Were there any witnesses to your moments of forward progress on your healing journey who could attest to whether it was the harshness or the calm or a combination that helped you?" "Were any of these witnesses wearing a thong?"
I am wearing a thong. Is that harsh?
Ravyn
What do you really know? How many people has Alan "converted"? How many has he converted using "harsh" techniques vs. "kind" techniques? For that matter, do you even have a clue about how many people little ol onacruse is "converting" using little ol onacruse's measely methods?
"The fact remains that there is no way (at least that I know of) to quantitatively evaluate which "method" is more effective. "
I have no numbers, only my anecdotal evidence. I don't really know your methods... I do know you haven't been at it all that long. Hopefully, you're wildly successful, especially with your family.
you know this is wild....when I started this thread I was thinking of Northerngirl's assertion that because we did not put up with her insulting trollness that she could not get 'honest' discourse here...hmmmm guess there is a whole big world out there that I did not even know about.....
I suspected as much. I know for myself, I simply can't meet arrogant stupidity with kindess, perhaps those who can are bigger than me. To this day, I doubt the sincerity of anyone who comes at me with stupid arrogant arguments and then acts insulted at being called on their stupidity and arrogance. If Northerngirl had an ounce of sincerity, she'll still have it tomorrow and the next day.
LOL @ the HC.
Interesting thoughts XW.
