does honesty need to be harsh?

by Ravyn 210 Replies latest members adult

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  asleif_dufansdottir

  1. There is no need to swat a fly with a Buick if you have a fly-swatter handy.

  2. If you are greatly over-harsh, then the message will be lost. In their reaction to your harshness, the person will overlook the substance of your message.

  3. You can be honest without being mean. Indeed, if you have a reputation for being mean, it will greatly reduce the likelihood that people will pay any attention to what you say at all. It will just be assumed you are venting your spleen without basis in fact.

  4. If you want to be considered a good person, I believe that the more likely your message to cause hurt, the more carefully you should deliver it.

  5. All this is said with the average person in mind. Sometimes it is necessary to take the gloves off. If the fly-swatter makes no impression, sometimes it's necessary to get out the Buick. (people like oldgrm on Beliefnet require the Buick treatment, most people don't) If the Buick treatment at least teaches some people not to f*@% with you, then it's done it's job.
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  xenawarrior

  Quite an interesting subject.

  I'm with Alan and Sixy on this one (fan club dues checks are in the mail guys).

  Unless you get many folks to step forward and say "This one thing so and so said is what did it for me" there is no actual way to measure what works in assisting in the healing process for someone being drawn away from something like this- IMO. And anyone would be hard pressed to attribute something so large to one person anyway.

  Responses to posts run the gamut here as they do on any discussion board meant for healing. Some weigh in with what might be considered "harsh", others with hugs and those with a similar experience and some who simply post a picture as their contribution. And if that person is "helped" they may be able to point to one or two things that stuck out in their mind in reading the responses. But that too may only stick out to them because of their own belief systems about what those "things" represent. They may have been helped but they might not even know themselves what it was and it might not be just one thing from one person - it might just be the whole lot of it combined !

  There is enough variety in the responses to be of assistance to many depending on what the need is at the time. Sometimes that need is fulfilled by harsh, sometimes it's a hug. So be it. Whatever works. I've read that so many were "awakened" by Ray Franz's book. But that was just the start of the healing and the journey is a long one for some. This isn't just something that people can say "Okay, I'm all done with that now" and have overnight recovery. From that point there are many who will be lighting the path along the way "out" in many ways.

  Provide proof of helping others? WTH is that about? Okay, sign up here- who is responsible for your life getting better about all of this? Are you sure? Are you sure it wasn't someone else? Good grief!! Documented proof? Give me a break.

  My 135 cents
• 

  badolputtytat

  I wanted to let this post expand before I inserted my (unsolicited and steady growing weirder) opinion. But it has pretty much been said so far.

  I have always been one to let people get me to the point that I am angry before I really tell them what I think. Being raised in this... thing... It did something to my assertiveness, I think. I am just the type to take it with a smile, go into the back room and scream, come back and smile.

  In the recent case.. when I first began to speak with this un-named....person, I tried so hard not to show my anger toward the organization. I tried to get a feel for what the human behind the philosophy really was feeling. . . In the end... HARSHNESS was all that seemed to make a difference. The point that PRISCA made at the beginning of this thread was that Harshness will only make the person more barricaded... it scares me, that my harshness may perpetuate the feelings that first brought this person to the board. I will feel some sort of guilt for that harshness probably forever... but I do not apologize for the motive.

  The harshness I used only made ME feel better. The person I was "defending" gains nothing. The person I "attacked" gains nothing. In the end.... it only served to chase her away. In the end... she may go back to the hive, and my harshness may have sent her there.

  I suppose in some cases, a harsh word can serve to wake the person up.... but, I truly see after reflecting on what was said... that a continuous kind attitude may have made all the difference in the world. "turn the other cheek"? HELL no... but perhaps there is wisdom in the teaching behind it. I dont know. I guess like anything, the circumstances and good judgement are always a factor.
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  onacruse

  I really feel I must press this point, since imho it cuts right to the heart (pardon the pun) of the issue here:

  Six:

  Funny to see such a discussion, when the discussees know that the notches on their guns will never be close to as numurous as Alan's.

  teejay:

  Six,

  I know you are a big fan of AlanF, but would it be too much trouble to substantiate the above claim by pointing us in the direction of some (any?) evidence that a single person has been helped by being called names on a discussion forum? I'd appreciate it.

  onacruse:

  We're talking about the best way to help the biggest number of people.

  Agreed. And so then answer me on my "90%+ have been helped by kindness." Do you think that's about the right percentage? Lower? If so, how do you know? From your personal experience? Perhaps a poll was done somewhere?

  HS:

  Please do not start asking for 'evidence' as I hate that game,

  Who is it that asserts that the confrontational take-down-the-walls-of-Jericho-with-a-nuclear-bomb method is so effective? AlanF, Six (and, to an extent, perhaps HS). Who is it that asserts that that there is clear proof of this? AlanF and Six. Who is it that is so damn insistent that everything be proved, or otherwise it's irrelevant gibberish? AlanF.

  Gentlemen, I ask you to prove this case, or otherwise simply admit that it's nothing more than your personal opinion, and your selected method, that dictates your behavior on this discussion board.

  And I humbly apologize in advance for taking some liberty in characterizing your opinions. I trust you'll all see the point I'm trying to make.

  Craig
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  teejay

  >>> I've read that so many were "awakened" by Ray Franz's book. -- xenawarrior
  

  Yes, many were helped. Thousands. Tens of thousands... and not a single harsh word to be found in hundreds of pages of words. Imagine that!

  tj ~ who hopes Six reads this post!
• 

  onacruse

  Hi XW! Glad to have your opinion here, especially since you were so instrumental in helping me heal

  Provide proof of helping others? WTH is that about? Okay, sign up here- who is responsible for your life getting better about all of this? Are you sure? Are you sure it wasn't someone else? Good grief!! Documented proof? Give me a break.

  We're talking about efficacy of technique, a subject with which you are very familiar. So, if I may ask, what percentage of the many people you've helped to recuperate from a traumatic experience were helped because you used "kind" technique, as compared to "harsh" technique? Or, perhaps, a weighted ratio of the two?

  Craig
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  SixofNine

  Who is it that asserts that the confrontational take-down-the-walls-of-Jericho-with-a-nuclear-bomb method is so effective? AlanF, Six (and, to an extent, perhaps HS). Who is it that asserts that that there is clear proof of this? AlanF and Six.

  Huh?
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  onacruse

  Six, I obviously (and hopefully very obviously) engaged in a bit of hyperbole, and meant no offense. But your assertion that "harsh" techniques are effective deserves, nay, even demands, that some kind of evidence be put up on the table to support your claim. Otherwise, it's just your opinion, eh?

  You've created a monster here...I'm finally starting to speak my mind, bluntly...it's almost like a drug.

  Craig
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  Ravyn

  in dealing with my in laws and certain marital stresses(usually caused by said in laws) I found the 'rude awakening(harsh)' to be combined with 'lonely ultimatum'--as in I walk out and leave his a$$ to think about what it would be like without me there to rudely awaken him.....worked well.

  we have now had a good two years without that particular problem. but it did hurt me to hurt him and it hurt me to have to hurt him to make something happen.

  now I can't really see a situation online that would tie me up in such intense emotional knots as that, so I don't know if I would CARE enough about something online to spend that kind of energy--which was not pleasant for me.

  I think the biggest reason I am not harsh and mean is that it is not comfortable to me. I hate it when I have to get mean and draw the line. makes me sick. (which gives me impetus to get harsh because then I am resenting the person who put me in that spot!)

  Ravyn
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  SixofNine

  Yes, many were helped. Thousands. Tens of thousands... and not a single harsh word to be found in hundreds of pages of words. Imagine that!

  Yep, I'm a real fan of Ray Franz .

  Two points: Ray Franz does not discuss, debate, or converse on this (or any, to my knowledge) discussion board. He writes books. His gentle style is just the touch, I must admit. But authoring books is a far different medium than discussing.

  Also, most people don't just decide one day to pick up CofC. Usually, someone makes them think, hard, about what their beliefs are based on first.