by BeaverEater 137 Replies latest jw friends
Iriddle - A tsunami proves beyond all doubt that the god of christian theism does not exist.
Collapsing towers and psychopathic Romans are not natural disasters.
What if it isn't just selection bias?
Then why do Muslims have exactly the same stories as christians?
I have heard the stories from people that were Muslims, Atheists, New Agers, Hindus, Buddhists, Jehovahs witness all tell a similar salvation story of how they came to faith in Jesus and how their lives were radically transformed.
You're right! A tower falling on people and murder are just events where people died. The message is clear.
Tsunamis, concentration camps, the senseless murders committed, the constant heartbreak we face everyday by people that supposedly love us, the Malaysian airplane that disappeared that we'll never know what happened, the political corruption, the word truth losing all meaning, technology not working, the constant barrage of anger, people committing suicide, families falling apart, the earth groaning, hurricanes, tornados, death of people we love, grief, loneliness, child trafficking, pedophiles, brick kiln slavery, slavery in general, rape, racism, are aliens real, is there a loch ness monster, I guess I could keep going.
These things don't disprove God, it just shows we need a savior because what other hope is there but God? Humans all over the world - atheists and believers of all religions -are trying to fight against all of this suffering! As an atheist I wonder why? If this is all meaningless leading to nothing? But do atheists put their hope in scientists or government to fix our suffering? That sounds silly because all people would have to unite in 1 mind and purpose to really fix anything and we know that isn't going to happen. The plane is going down! We need a parachute!
Iriddle - please stop muddling natural evil with all those other things.
Only natural disasters prove beyond all doubt that the god of christian theism does not exist. You need to deal with the hard question I am asking not the easy one I am not.
No plane is going down - the sky isn't falling. This generalised sense of angst is the sine qua non of all apocalyptic religions.
The question of a tsunami disproving God?
It doesn't. God didn't save their lives. It's heartbreaking. He didn't save Jesus's life either. I'm glad for that.
He doesn't promise to save our human lives. Jesus raised Lazarus...he still died later.
Those people in the tsunami would have still died later. He did something to protect us from eternal death.
From another - very long thread..
The Anatomy of a Tsunami
For hundreds or even thousands of years under the Indian Ocean the Indo-Australian tectonic plate had been sliding below the Eurasian plate, however the slide was not smooth. The lower plate snagged the upper one creating a "locked fault zone". Unimaginable pressure built up as the upper plate was dragged down until at 07:58 local time on 26th December 2004 it broke free lifting up billions of tons of water in a few seconds in a magnitude 9 earthquake.
As the wave rose to the surface it was less than a metre high. As it sped towards the coasts of the Pacific Rim at speeds of 800Km/h the waves grew to over 15 metres. Within hours a quarter of a million people were dead and a further two million were homeless.
God Did It
The god of Jesus created the world complete with moving and sticking tectonic plates. We know that continents have been on the move for millions of years. The omniscient god of Jesus knew about the growing pressures under the Indian Ocean during the centuries prior to the disaster. On the morning of the event he observed the Indo-Australian break free and begin to rebound. The omnipotent god of Jesus could have effortlessly dampened the rebound - he chose not to. He watched the wave of less than a metre rise to the surface. The god of Jesus who calmed the storm on Galilee could have quelled the wave and nobody would have known anything about it. No free will would have been infringed in any way. He failed to do so.
The god of Jesus knew that the wave would kill a quarter of a million people and cause suffering and harm millions more. He did nothing.
The god of Jesus did not permit the suffering of the Asian Tsunami - he caused it. He murdered them wilfully, deliberately and with malice aforethought. He made a world that was perfectly designed to kill its inhabitants and passively observed the consequences.
If a man lays landmines around a village and watches children walk across the minefield he is guilty not only of a crime of omission for failing to call a warning but of a deliberate crime of commission.
The Hypocrisy of God
My argument is not that suffering is incompatible with the existence of god. It is rather that events such as the Asian tsunami are incompatible with other things that christians claim to know about god. All attempts to explain god's actions result in a story that is internally contradictory.
Jesus claimed to have been sent to reveal the nature of his god and father. Not only does christianity claim that god is love, it defines the meaning of love, and explains the importance of love expressed as positive action in the interests of others.
I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous... Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. - Matt.5
Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Matt.6
But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. - Luke 6
Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows. - Luke 12
Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. - Jas.1
"Love ... always protects" - 1 Cor.13
The god of Jesus is also a god who is active in the world. Millions of christians demonstrate their belief in an immanent god every day. When they thank god for their food or pray for protection for a loved one or for a new job or help with any one of a million concerns they confirm that they worship a god who acts in the real world.
This god of christian theism - the god who is all-powerful - all knowing and perfectly loving as defined by Jesus does NOT exist.
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Please do not reply with a knee-jerk platitude. Give it some serious thought.
Ok, that's fair. God did it.
I think of Hebrews 10:30-31
For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
So, if you see how God killed all those people in Asia, that would scare me! I certainly don't want to fall into his hands! And I believe in hell, too, which many people don't find compatible with a loving God.
Yes, he is loving for sure and a bunch of other adjectives and scriptures, but be careful!
Thank you for making my point.
We can safely disregard the god christians invented.
Threats of eternal torment are the last resort of dogmatists who have no evidence.
The God of the bible is far more complex than you or I can imagine is what it tells me. His ways are not our ways.
But it shows how he made a way for us to be saved and forgiven through Jesus so I, for one, am not worried about a tsunami or hell. And he is "with us" in the suffering. I have evidence of that!
Anyway, I had a really rough day earlier, so I'm grateful for the banter! God used you to lift my spirits Cofty! I love a fun back and forth!
Jesus preached a god who loves his enemies.
In the Asian tsunami he murdered a quarter of a million men women and children including countless thousands of faithful christians.
He is either a moral monster or a figment of your imagination.
I love a fun back and forth!
I don't find the casual dismissal of a quarter of a million innocents to be fun.
