I find it interesting that after the cult people still hold on to religion....

by BeaverEater 137 Replies latest jw friends

  • cofty

    I rarely have a clue about what on earth you are wittering about.

  • cofty

    Iriddle - Please let me try to focus the debate.

    I am NOT claiming that evil in general proves there is no god.

    I am saying that natural evil - specifically the Asian tsunami - proves beyond all sensible debate that the god of Jesus does not exist.


    Your only substantial reply so far has been to assert that god has the absolute right to murder the innocent babies of faithful Christians if he chooses to.

    Okay I agree - an all powerful creator has that right. However if he acts that way he is NOT the god of Jesus; the god who is defined as love.

    You have to choose.

    The Euthyphro Dilemma
    Does god do good and loving things because they are good and loving; or are actions good and loving because god chooses them?

    You have so far chosen the second option. This eradicates objective goodness. It means that murder is good and loving - perfectly loving - if god chooses it.

    Therefore everything Jesus came to earth to teach and act out concerning his god and father is a lie. You no longer have any foundation for your understanding of what it means to be good or loving. Love is no longer about putting the needs of others before your own - now it might include murdering innocent infants.

    If you are correct then your god is not love in any meaningful sense of the word, he is a capricious tyrant.

  • TonusOH

    Iriddle80: The God of the bible is far more complex than you or I can imagine is what it tells me. His ways are not our ways.

    Iriddle80: God will destroy people as he sees fit. He made us, it's his prerogative.

    You have described a being who has the right --and the power-- to destroy people, and who is also too complex to understand. A being whose "ways are not our ways." We cannot trust this being to have the same sense of justice, mercy, or kindness that we know and expect of one another. The god you describe has taken extreme actions in the past, striking down people for minor actions and even wiping out nearly all life on the planet.

    So, what do we have? A being of incalculable power, against whom we are defenseless, and who we aren't really sure we understand. A being whose every action --regardless of how we would judge it if it was done by another human-- is by definition good. Who could, if he so wished, visit torture and death on every living being in existence and still be in the right. Who can do the most seemingly evil things, yet not be evil.

    What you describe is the scariest possible thing one can imagine. A terrifying being.

  • lriddle80

    Euthyphros Dilemma:

    Is an act right because God says it's so?

    Does God say it's so because it's right?

    Good question! I hadn't heard this before!

    Reading through the Bible has been such a journey. I read the stories and sometimes have exclaimed "What?" Who I thought God was was different than who the Bible revealed him to be. Stories took turns that I didn't see coming! I heard a scripture that said Wisdom is shown to be right by what results from it. Then that time Paul said he was sad about sending a letter but later felt glad about it because it produced repentance. One time a stripper was befriended by this Christian friend of mine. Then this stripper got beat up by her boyfriend which led her to getting saved and her life transformed. Was it good she got beat up if it led her to Christ? These things made me question what is good? Maybe the world was more complex. Then guess what? The boyfriend that beat her up spent some time in prison - became a Christian himself, got out, they got married, had another child and are serving the Lord together. I never saw that coming! Was that good?

    Is "good" only positive things that we think are good or is "good" a concept that goes a little deeper? I have been perplexed about this topic for a while and I keep getting surprised by God about what good means.

    So, was the tsunami good? I read that it led to better forms of alerts and whatnot for that region, but that another tsunami will probably come by 2040 and kill most of the remaining people there. But that one story of that family that were separated and all reunited and survived was good. It led to us having this conversation which I personally find good.

    What about what God allowed poor Job to go through? Then when God speaks I was surprised because he basically said I'm God, I created everything..what did you create? And Job got humbled and shut his mouth. That made me go hmmm. But yeah, he's God, he created everything, he gets to decide what good is. He is sovereign and knows everything. He has more knowledge than mere men so we don't know the whole story. In interactions with people..if you don't know a person's story you might not understand their behavior. When you learn the whole story, it makes sense. It doesn't make it right per se in the case of man, but the concept is there. So I guess my final answer is I don't have all the data that God has, so I am going to believe, based on the data I have that good is more complex and I believe God to be good in spite of the tsunami happening.

  • cofty

    TonusOH - well said.

    Iriddle our posts overlapped. Please go back and read my previous post. I look forward to your thoughtful response.

  • lriddle80

    What did you think of the one I posted though in the meantime?

  • cofty

    If I understand correctly you are saying two things.

    1 - Some good came of murdering thousands of innocent babies - we are having this enjoyable conversation for example.

    2 - It's a mystery.

    Have a guess what I think.

  • lriddle80

    After reading your post.

    God allowed Jesus to be murdered to carry out the plan. Jesus allowed himself to be murdered to save everyone. This is the definition of love. That he laid down his life to save us, even ones that would spit on his corpse.

    I really don't believe that God murders Christian's babies and calls that good.

    My point was we don't really know what is good because we don't have all the information and understanding that God has! He just told us to make disciples in his name, baptize them. Love him and love others. Have you ever tried to unconditionally love an unlovable human? It's difficult! One that I fail at daily. I rely on God's Holy Spirit to help me and when I do, then I somewhat succeed. But it's about impossible to show true love of the bible to another person. Maybe you've had better luck, but I find it nearly impossible on my own. People are selfish. So, if God isn't love then love doesn't exist either because I haven't found true love in this world from a human. They try. But it's tinged in selfishness.

  • lriddle80

    So, if there is no God then love doesn't exist and we are fooling ourselves trying to find it and say it. We are Liars.


  • cofty
    My point was we don't really know what is good

    I do know for an absolute certainty that deliberately murdering thousands of innocent babies is NOT perfectly good and loving.

    I know that there are no extenuating circumstances that could possibly make it good and loving.

    Therefore your god is not good and loving.

    It really is very simple and blindingly obvious.

    Jesus told you what love means. So did Paul. Why are you feigning ignorance?

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