Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop 233 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • konceptual99
    konceptual99

    If you are not clear about the issue with Islam then consider the situation with JWs.

    Many people who perhaps know a Witness but have never engaged with the organisation would be quite prepared to say that Witnesses are nice people. They are law-abiding, don't cause a fuss, peaceable and so on.

    What they fail to recognise, however, is that every Witness, other than a very small minority of those on the edge, subscribes to a whole set of fundamental norms that are built into their core perception of how the world should be organised from a moral and theological perspective. These norms do not align with what would be considered modern, progressive attitudes to human interaction. For example:

    Women are in subjection to men and have been conditioned to willingly accept the situation as their God given role. Non Witnesses are condemned to the prospect of destruction at a global war yet this threat is publicly downplayed. Those who fail to meet the standards of the organisation or choose to formally leave are completely shunned yet this behaviour is blamed on the person as something that they have brought on themselves and ultimately will be good for them. Homosexual relationships are completely unacceptable yet this again is publicly downplayed to try and avoid claims of homophobia.

    The same is true of Islam. Of course most Muslims we are likely to meet in our day to day lives are not violent Jihadists however the vast majority essentially subscribe to a set of moral and cultural norms that do not encourage tolerance and diversity.

    What is worse is that it's highly unlikely that any Witness will ever resort to violence and terror in support of their brand of Christianity however this is absolutely not the case with Islam.

    It's good to see some Muslims taking a stand, for example by their support of public events related to the Westminster attack last week however there really does need to be much more done from the inside out to bring real reform.

  • bohm
    bohm

    Simon: If you don't believe it as written, why not simply restate it? I would be happy to look for your question and try to answer it but quite frankly, I am confused as to what arguments and opinions on this subject and which are okay and which are off limits, and it does not make sense to continue a discussion which is against posting guidelines.

  • Simon
    Simon

    Seriously, you're now going with "question? was there a question? I didn't see a question" as your reason for not answering the question I specifically directed at you and repeated several times ...

    Are ISIS more or less Islamic than Maajid Nawaz? Going off the Qurans definition of what it means to be Muslim, i.e. who follows the example of the murderous jihadist prophet the closest: the murderous jihadists or someone campaigning for peace.

    Can't wait to see what the next excuse is. Let me guess, some confusion over whether I mean ISIS the Islamic State Terrorists or ISIS, the dog of Downton Abbey ...

  • Village Idiot
    Village Idiot

    Simon,

    Let me guess, some confusion over whether I mean ISIS the Islamic State Terrorists or ISIS, the dog of Downton Abbey ...

    Don't forget this ISIS.


  • bohm
    bohm

    Simon: I did actually already answered that question when LUHE asked it of me.

    I am confused about how I can participate in this thread but since you asked...

    My answer was that I think it is wrong to treat Islam as a single entity, etc. etc., similar to how I think it is wrong to ask if the Catholics or the JWs are more like Jesus (you can point to ways they are similar and ways they are dissimilar). But if you want a simple yes/no answer then sure, I will go with yes.

  • bohm
    bohm

    Incidentally, Ayan Hirsi Ali has a recent report on radical Islam (she calls it political Islam) and the various branches of Islam which she too believes exists; these are incidentally the same distinctions as Bernhard Haykel makes in the work I shared earlier though he is more interested in the historical/political context and Hirsi Ali focuses on policy. I don't share her optimism with regards to Trump, but the distinctions she is making (and her analysis of contemporary Islamism) is exactly the same as those I am making on this thread. For instance, from the conclusion:

    • The administration should recognize the diversity of Muslim citizens and support Islamic reformers here and around the world.
    • In reaching out to the Muslim American community, the administration should ally itself with genuine Muslim moderates and reformers, not with “nonviolent” Islamists. Nonviolent Islamists are engaged in subversion: they seek to replace the US Constitution and rule of law with sharia

    My point is that the idea that we can recognize people as both Muslims and moderates is one she shares. Do you believe she too is wrong?

    http://www.hoover.org/sites/default/files/research/docs/ali_challengeofdawa_final_web.pdf

    (Before she is quoted to "disprove" me, please keep in mind that save some optimism with regards to Trump what she is writing on Islam and Islams relationship to terrorism is in alignment with what I have written on this thread and elsewhere)

  • Simon
    Simon
    My answer was that ...

    No, that's not an answer. Here, let me make it easier for you. Your options are:

    1. ISIS is more Islamic than someone who doesn't do any of the things Mohamed did.

    2. ISIS is less Islamic than someone who doesn't do any of the things Mohamed did.

    3. ISIS is exactly as Islamic as someone who doesn't do any of the things Mohamed did.

    You just need to pick a number, from 1-3, and explain your reasoning. If you believe ISIS are not as Islamic as Maajid Nawaz, then chose option 2. But explain how they are less Islamic when they do more Islamic things.

    And again, the definition of what it means to be Islamic comes from Islam. I don't think it's valid to suggest that Catholics are more Islamic for instance, they are clearly not.

    Finally, explain why you think you can decide who is and isn't Islamic, in contradiction to Islam, and how many Muslim's you've managed to convince to respect your rulership.

  • Simon
  • bohm
    bohm

    well, to make it clear, 1, for obvious reasons (presumably, someone who does nothing or little of what Mohammed did is less Islamic than someone who tries to do much, by the common definition of the word Islamic).

    I would recommend you to read the report. What do you think about her suggestion that there are moderate Muslims and reformers with whom meaningful alliances can be build?

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    Should another terrorist attack happen - heaven forbid- what are the odds of the attackers being Islamic? What could be done in advance to save lives of terrorist victims before terrorism happens, given the odds?

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