SBF: Don't despair, any moment now LUHE will provide the intellectual artillery required to prove a good Muslim have to rape. It will be a brutal knock-down argument.
Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS
by kpop 233 Replies latest watchtower bible
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bohm
Although not necessarily considered part of mainstream Islam, everything ISIS does is according to Sharia and the example of Muhammad. So, ISIS members have the required qualities of Muhammad's example and meet the strict standard of Sharia. Hence, they can be spoken of as 'good' Muslims.
Okay. So we agree that on ISIS interpretation of Islam, rape is fine and dandy in some cases. What you have demonstrated so far is therefore that on ISIS interpretation of Islam, which you yourself describe as not necessarily mainstream*, rape is fine. Accordingly you implicitly agree there are other interpretation of Islam according to which rape is not okay. (you agree with me on that? or do you believe all interpretations of Islam teaches its adherents they *have* to rape?)
At most where you end up is that you work with a definition of "good muslim" according to which ISIS are PART of the set of good Muslims and ISIS allows rape (I refrain from parsing the difference between allows and orders rape, i.e. the "have").
Can you please tell me how you get from these premises to the statement that a "good Muslim" have to rape?
For your ISIS example to be relevant you will have to prove ISIS contains all the "good Muslims". I know ISIS believes that, but I am very curious as to how you will prove it.
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LoveUniHateExams
First, I want to clear up the meaning of the adjective 'good'.
The adjective 'good' has two main meanings:
1. to be desired, e.g. 'a good quality of life'
and
2. having the required qualities, e.g. 'his marks are not good enough'.
(https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/good)
From the context, when Simon says "a good Muslim must be a butcher and rapist", I assume he is using 'good' in its second meaning. Perhaps he can say what he meant.
please tell me how you get from these premises to the statement that a "good Muslim" has to rape? - Muhammad's example must be copied. Muhammad was a rapist because he had sex with a nine year old. Underage brides sadly occur in parts of the Muslim World. If a Muslim country has the age of consent at, say, 16, then in that respect that Muslim country wouldn't be very Islamic because they'd be deviating from Muhammad's example (actually a good thing).
For your ISIS example to be relevant you will have to prove ISIS contains all the "good Muslims" - no, I don't have to 'prove' that at all. ISIS isn't the only group that allows Muslim men to have sex with nine year old girls. Child brides unfortunately happen elsewhere, and with other groups.
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bohm
LUHE: You agree with the claim that all good muslims have to rape. Proving that some parts of Islam admits rape is not the same as proving that all good Muslims have to rape
Do you believe all "good Muslims" are in ISIS?
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LoveUniHateExams
You agree with the claim that all good muslims have to rape
Muhammad's life is looked by Muslims as the best way to live.
Muhammad was a rapist (had sex with a nine year old girl).
Muslim men copy this.
"Some Islamic marriage practices have permitted marriage of girls below the age of 10, because Shariat law is based in part on the life and practices of Muhammad, the Prophet, as described in part in Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim. The Prophet married Aisha, his third wife, when she was about age six,[37] and consummated the marriage when she was about age nine ..."
"Yemen government's Sharia Legislative Committee has blocked attempts to raise marriage age to either 15 or 18, on grounds that any law setting minimum age for girls is un-Islamic. Yemeni Muslim activists argue that some girls are ready for marriage at age 9"
"The widespread prevalence of child marriage in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has been documented by human rights groups.[122] Saudi clerics have justified the marriage of girls as young as 9, with sanction from the judiciary" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage.
(I don't know how simpler I can put it so that you get the point.)
Proving that some parts of Islam admits rape - it's not just "some parts of Islam"; Islam's founder, prophet and example was a child rapist.
Do you believe all "good Muslims" are in ISIS? - no, obviously not, as the last paragraph in my previous post indicates.
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bohm
LUHE:
Agree that Muhammed was a pedophile according to the Quran, and pedophilia is widespread in the Arab world for that reason. But obviously, not all Muslims agree, as your sources indicate.
How does that prove that a good Muslim have to rape?
Why does a muslim become "non good" if he does not rape?
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bohm
Muhammed also had 4 wives. Are all Muslims with less than 4 wives not good muslims?
What about female muslims? do they also have to rape? When did we prove that?
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Ruby456
bohm - I think that what people are objecting to about Islam is that ideas like child marriage shouldn't be in currency but that they are makes Islam reprehensible. I think this sort of reasoning is pretty cogent don't you?
I guess we need to look for objections from muslims themselves towards such things. Now that terrorism is added to the list of awful things being justified by Islam people want to see more support from muslims that they are against these things. But is this a problem with what the media chooses to focus on? most of us who know muslims don't find that they agree with such awful things. But most of us don't know that many muslims. I guess what people want is greater reassurance from muslims themselves.
edit: I think probably what we need to do is our own digging to find out what is true and what isn't. if we make the muslims that we know our starting point then we may arrive at a different conclusion? but we tend to take our starting point from the media - the bigger the headlines then the better it is to claim that we know what muslims are like - but this can be very misleading. However, as others have reasoned it is undoubtedly true that there are some awful texts in the Quran, the sunna and the hadiths.
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Jehalapeno
bohm:
There's nothing "wrong" with Muslims, just as there's nothing "wrong" with individual Jehovah's Witnesses, aside from the fact that they've been duped and brainwashed by childhood indoctrination.
It's the ideology that's toxic and detrimental to society as a whole, and should rightly be criticized.
The hesitancy of a lot on the left (not all the left, just the snowflakes) to criticize an oppressive, homophobic, xenophobic, misogynist ideology is where the issue lies.
Open, unabashed criticism of Islam, without publicly shaming the critic as an "Islamophobe," is what's needed if their ideology has any hope of reform.
Christianity was a shitty religion for centuries. Hell, it was horrible and oppressive for over a millennium. For the most part, they had a reformation that has steadily scaled back the extremism over the centuries. I still think Christianity is awful. But, it sure is a lot better today than it was 800 years ago. Improvement is improvement. And it only has improved and lessened its influence by allowing free and open criticism of the doctrine.
The same needs to happen to Islam.
Spicy blessings upon thee.
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kpop
Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = negligible.
Number of Muslims who protested the Danish paper's cartoons = many thousands world-wide, lots of flag-burning, embassy burning, proclamations of death to the West, violence, and the odd murder or two.
More Muslims protested about a f**king cartoon than protested about a lunatic who ran over pedestrians and stabbed a police officer to death. That's shameful.
Kpop's thread is a good one and his point remains ...
Thank you LUHE. Actually that of course is the point of this entire thread but it was lost on those with their biases showing and their heads up their asses. Thank you for mentioning the cartoon as well. Muslims worldwide came out to protest a cartoon but a terrorist attack that killed people that is indeed 100% in the name of Islam is NOT protested says everything. My example was in France, hundreds of Muslims came out and blocked the streets and protested just two days after the attack to protest the closure of an illegal Mosque. That is correct, a Mosque that was deemed illegal by a court for various infractions was closed and hundreds of Muslims came out to protest that..... but how many came out to protest this attack? To make things worse, on the Arabic news feed of the attack in London, hundreds of "ordinary Muslims" laughed and celebrated and cheered the attacks saying things like "Praise Allah for he has punished the infidels" and "We need more lone wolves to attack the infidels in the name of Allah!"
But of course the left says, "this has nothing to do with Islam..." I still noticed that none of the usual defenders here dared to touch that video because it says everything we need to know. It reminds me of a meme I saw floating around that had a radical Muslim holding a knife and suicide vest chanting "death to Americans and Jews KILL KILL KILL infidels!" and in the next frame on CNN a reporter saying, "he doesn't really mean that!" I don't understand the infatuation with defending the most dangerous of ideologies on earth....