Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop 233 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  bohm

  FMF: I am confused about what the program you propose will actually interface with Muslims in a practical sense.

  The only people mentioned in the above that have contact with Muslims are the critics (I assume you refer to e.g. Ali, Nawaz, Ali Rizvi, etc.), but you seem to believe these critics got Islam fundamentally wrong (they believe Islam can exist in a more benign form) and are proposing something which will not work (reform & enlightenment).

  Your prosal is to replace these critics with others who are more hardline and who thereby "shame" Muslims out of Islam?

  Is there any evidence that such a proposal has worked before?
• 

  freemindfade

  Your prosal is to replace these critics with others who are more hardline and who thereby "shame" Muslims out of Islam?

  That is 100% absolutely not what I am saying. Why do I bother even trying to speak to you? talking to you is literally pointless. Everytime, I never learn.

  I am saying the regressive left treats these critics as heretics and that is part of the problem. The CNN idiots, the SPLC.

  I am not proposing "a program" either. I am saying this is what needs to change. You can't make CNN and their MSM conterparts f-ckwhits stop being f-ckwhits. Or celebrities spewing nonsense, people who claim to be liberal that demonize and shun ex-muslims.

  Exposing and being honest about Islam is fought by brain damaged people parading around as liberals. I offer no solution, except that you will never reform anything as long as these lies go on.

  I never suggested replacing any Critics of Islam, I am talking about not letting morons censor them. Again having any kind of discussion with you has no point. WTF??
  
• 

  bohm

  Maybe I misunderstood you. Perhaps we can try over and see if we can nail down where we agree or not.

  First off, I am (obviously) against censorship as well, as well as letting the various apologists for Islam get screentime (such as Glenn Greenwald or Reza Aslan). I am also against deplatforming. For some reason it is assumed in this thread and other places I somehow accept or apologize for these things and I can't tell where this confusion originated.

  My issue is that the only reformers I am aware of (Ali, Newaz, Rizvi or, to mention someone without a Muslim background, Sam Harris) are in some form or another combining a critique of Islam with the idea Islam can and should reform into a more benign form. I would very much suggest you read Alis report to get an idea about the things she is proposing.

  But that idea, that Islam can and should be reformed into a moderate form, can insofar as I see it only be promoted if one believes that Islam CAN exist in such a form. I.e. there is a "moderate Islam".

  Similar to the above critics of Islam, I don't think moderate Islam follows easily from the Muslim scriptures, which arguably combines the worst of Judaism (legalism and brutality) with the worst of Christianity (promotion of faith-based thinking and dispensationalism), but as far as I understand them they all believe such a form of Islam can nevertheless exist, even if few "true moderates" exist today.

  I do not know if you agree or disagree with the above points?

  This gets me to the point about what it means to be a "good Muslim". I don't think that the premise that a "good Muslim" is by definition bloodthirsty is compatible with the view moderate Islam exists. We will essentially be saying: Come be a moderate Muslim. Sure, you won't be a good Muslim, but you will be moderate.

  I don't think that this is the view that Ali, Nawaz or Rizvi is promoting, that is why I believe they too think there are ways to be a "good muslim" that does not involve acceptance of Sharia or the darker parts of the Quran, even though it requires mental gymnastics to adopt such a definition -- but fortunate, if there is one think religion teaches its members, it is mental gymnastics.

  This again comes down to how obvious the view of Islam that e.g. ISIS is promoting follows necessarily from any reasonable definition of "A Muslim". According to e.g. ISIS it is 1:1; you can't have Islam without the view they are promoting. Proposing you can be a Muslim and not believing hands should be cut off for stealing is like saying you can be geologist and believe the earth is flat.

  I don't think that is true (despite my comments regarding the morals of the Quran) and where I again refer to the beliefs of reformers and scholars such as Haykel. Fundamentally my disagreement with ISIS on this view comes down to how they see Islam as offering a 100% coherent view of the world and I don't. If you don't believe Islam is coherent, you got to cut things out and bend the truth to make it mesh with reality, and so you might as well cut out the things that prevent you from being a moderate. Again I refer to the discussion found in e.g. Alis policy proposal.
• 

  Simon

  I was waiting for Simon to extricate himself - I definitely think there is a way but will wait patiently

  I think you'll be waiting a long time. If you want me to change my opinion of something, you have to come up with some reasoned arguments why I should.

  That is 100% absolutely not what I am saying. Why do I bother even trying to speak to you? talking to you is literally pointless. Everytime, I never learn.

  Yeah, I'm seeing that pattern too.

  Bohm may believe that he believes something but I don't think he really knows what it is. It's like nailing jello to a wall.

  there are Muslims who are promoting a more benign form of Islam; at the very least I think it should be tried and these efforts supported

  There is ZERO evidence that these efforts, this time round, will be any more successful than any others have been in the last 1,400 years. Is there any evidence that enlightenment is taking root in the Muslim world or are they sinking further and further into an abyss of ignorance?

  You talk as though there is ZERO cost to waiting and trying, it's not true. People are dying. People are suffering. Millions of them. Most of them Muslim. At some point someone will get weapons bigger than regular munitions that can be contained. The kind of horrific attacks we've seen played out in cities across the world will be repeated on a massive scale that will make 9/11 look like someone throwing stones. We simply cannot allow that to happen.

  We need to, at the very least, demonstrate that we have some resolve and are not weak because right now people are wanting to throw to gates open to the barbarians and put their hands up.

  At least the liberal regressive left will probably be slaughtered first when that happens - they seem to think that Islam will respect and thank them. It won't.
• 

  freemindfade

  It's like nailing jello to a wall

  That's it. Yes!
  
  
• 

  bohm

  Is there any evidence that enlightenment is taking root in the Muslim world or are they sinking further and further into an abyss of ignorance?

  This is a good question. I am not aware of any statistics that demonstrate this one way or the other. I would assess the situation as there being an increasing awareness of non-Muslim values but at the same time obvious points where things are going the wrong way, such as the increasing influence of Saudi-Arabia or the increasing acceptance of non-secular values by Erdogan in Turkey.

  You talk as though there is ZERO cost to waiting and trying, it's not true. People are dying. People are suffering. Millions of them. Most of them Muslim. At some point someone will get weapons bigger than regular munitions that can be contained.

  That is a misunderstanding. The costs of Islamism are obvious and acutely felt, especially in the Arab world. The question is what to do?

  Where we seem to agree is that the problem is there are 1.4 billion Muslim who adheres to, or in some ways admire or support, interpretations of Islam that run counter to western values, as well as a significant minority of Muslims who are nuts (the long-beards brigade).

  My ideas for what should be done are similar to what Ali outlined in her report

  http://www.hoover.org/sites/default/files/research/docs/ali_challengeofdawa_final_web.pdf

  (see the conclusion), in particular, a focus on combatting political Islam while trying to promote more benign forms of Islam [my main reservation are with the foreign-policy proposals which I think fail to address the elephant in the room, Saudi Arabia]. I understand that this is in parts a "waiting" approach with few active measures, but what else can be done than what she proposes?

  We need to, at the very least, demonstrate that we have some resolve and are not weak because right now people are wanting to throw to gates open to the barbarians and put their hands up.

  I agree.
• 

  LoveUniHateExams

  @bohm - I could be wrong but what I get from your comments is that you want Islam to be reformed and you want to be positive and focus on 'good' Muslims, the 'good' bits of Islam.

  Something must be done - we can't keep going on allowing terrorists to kill innocent people.

  Islam is a problem. If there is to be reform, it must be criticised and changed. Pointing out how wonderful whirling dervishes are or how peaceful Sufi and Ahmadi Muslims are means nothing and accomplishes nothing.

  I've spoken several times before that I want Islam to be reformed but, having read Simon's and FMF's comments, I have to admit that meaningful reformation is very unlikely.

  Maybe there can be some kind of process in the West whereby Western governments reform the religion in some way, monitor all mosques (close down the ones that won't go along with the program), stop Muslim immigrants getting into the country, crack down on polygamy, promote education which would lead to Muslim women having fewer children (e.g. the UK's Muslim population would be 3 million and increase in step with the population as a whole). Even this is doubtful but it might be worth a go.
• 

  Simon

  This is a good question. I am not aware of any statistics that demonstrate this one way or the other.

  Well actually the rest of us are. Because comprehensive polling has been done which shows the attitudes of many Muslims even in western liberal democracies are regressing even further and becoming more entrenched.

  The number who are wanting to enforce Sharia are growing. Letting millions in from backward countries increases the number of people with backward views. Who knew!

  And if you think this is accidental, they I suggest you read up on Islam and how Jihad operates. It's not all swords, bullets and bombs. It's a slow creep and takeover of schools and councils and eventually governments.
• 

  bohm

  LUHE: I could be wrong but what I get from your comments is that you want Islam to be reformed and you want to be positive and focus on 'good' Muslims, the 'good' bits of Islam

  This is only half-true. I want/hope Islam is reformed (and you seem to agree?), but as I have written many times I support Alis proposals and an important component of that is to focus on and combat political Islam by various means.

  Islam is a problem. If there is to be reform, it must be criticised and changed. Pointing out how wonderful whirling dervishes are or how peaceful Sufi and Ahmadi Muslims are means nothing and accomplishes nothing.

  When I have pointed to non-violent forms of Islam, or moderate Muslims such as Nawaz, it has been to highlight that Muslims believe many things and that reform is possible. This is a less strong claim than saying it is feasible or will be accomplished which I can't predict, but within the bounds of law I can't see what more can be done than support general reform/moves towards moderate Islam and try to subvert Islamism.

  There is a strong false assumption that pointing this out is equivalent to making excuses for violent Islam, saying that Islam is peaceful or that Islam is easily reformed. I believe neither of these things but these assumptions seems to crop up again and again.
• 

  bohm

  Simon:

  Well actually the rest of us are. Because comprehensive polling has been done which shows the attitudes of many Muslims even in western liberal democracies are regressing even further and becoming more entrenched.

  I understood the question to mean if the efforts of reform are doing anything to change opinion, not what the current opinions presently is ("Is there any evidence that enlightenment is taking root in the Muslim world...").

  If we accept enlightenment/reform is impossible, what do we do instead? I cite Alis report to show the type of approach I think is better to combat radical Islam and TBH, I don't really know what other kind of suggestions there are.

  
  

  And if you think this is accidental, they I suggest you read up on Islam and how Jihad operates. It's not all swords, bullets and bombs.

  I have read a bit on this both from secular and Islamic sources... what would you recommend?