Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop 233 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    or moderate Muslims such as Nawaz, it has been to highlight that Muslims believe many things and that reform is possible - but Maajid Nawaz has to live under police protection, otherwise Muslims will kill him.

    This strongly suggests that Islam cannot be reformed.

    The only way I think might be worth attempting is the suggestions in the final paragraph of my previous post.

    This wouldn't be a global reformation but, rather, The West getting to grips with Islam & Muslims in their own countries.

    So-called liberal progressives protecting Islam from criticism, trying to find equivalence with Christianity, and focusing on irrelevances like whirling dervishes and Ahmadi/Sufi minorities ... don't help at all.

  • Simon
    Simon
    When I have pointed to non-violent forms of Islam, or moderate Muslims such as Nawaz, it has been to highlight that Muslims believe many things and that reform is possible.

    Well, you can take Muslim-like and call it Islam, but we all know it isn't and it doesn't convince them either. That's why it fails, it always has and it always will. Or do you plan on going round and replacing everyone's Quran and Hadith while they're asleep?

    The way Islam's belief system is structured simply doesn't allow for reform.

    If we accept enlightenment/reform is impossible, what do we do instead? I cite Alis report to show the type of approach I think is better to combat radical Islam.

    Yes, its encroachment needs to be fought but it needs to start with people supporting doing it. While people like you are there to march, protest or pop up to argue that black is white every time there's a discussion, that will never happen. We can either have a civilized resistance and push back or it can descend into anarchy and chaos where hundreds of thousands, possibly millions die.*

    Frankly, I don't care if the battle is fought over the corpse of the regressive left which I think is going to happen. Amazing that supporting a fascist regime is actually the hill it chose to die on after all the grand idealizing.

    * that isn't empty rhetoric BTW. Look at the places that Islam has devastated that were once modern thriving cities, even tourist destinations. People don't seem to imagine that sort of thing could happen in the west, but it's already starting.

    Listen to the people who lived through it and escaped: they say "this is how it starts".

  • bohm
    bohm

    but Maajid Nawaz has to live under police protection, otherwise Muslims will kill him.

    This strongly suggests that Islam cannot be reformed.

    You are equivocating on the word "can". When I write that Islam can be reformed it should be apparent (because I have written it several times so far) that I mean there are versions of Islam which are reformed. Nawaz himself is one such reformed Muslim (assuming you accept he is both a Muslim and reformed).

  • bohm
    bohm
    Simon: We can either have a civilized resistance and push back or it can descend into anarchy and chaos where hundreds of thousands, possibly millions die.*

    As I have written many times now, I believe we should engage in a campaign to combat Islamism primarily through non-military means. To say that I do not believe this is simply from my perspective flat out wrong.

    I cited Alis report as an example of the means that I think should be used. It may be that what she propose is not feasible because Muslims will never in large quantities accept a reformed version of Islam. But then I ask again: If not the ones Ali outline, what concrete steps would you advocate to combat Islamism?

  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    @bohm - Maajid Nawaz is a Sunni Muslim who is reformed. Millions of Sunnis want to kill him. Sunnis are the majority.

    I mean there are versions of Islam which are reformed - which versions are there?

    I believe we should engage in a campaign to combat Islamism primarily through non-military means - this is totally nuts. Islamism must be fought militarily.

  • bohm
    bohm

    @bohm - Maajid Nawaz is a Sunni Muslim who is reformed. Millions of Sunnis want to kill him. Sunnis are the majority.

    I mean there are versions of Islam which are reformed - which versions are there?

    I was referring to Islam as practiced by Nawaz. Look, you even acknowledge that he practices a form of reformed Islam. As you wrote, "Maajid Nawaz is a Sunni Muslim who is reformed.". If you are interested in an itemization of all forms of Islam I suggest you begin with wikipedia.

    I believe we should engage in a campaign to combat Islamism primarily through non-military means - this is totally nuts. Islamism must be fought militarily.

    Interesting. Invasion of Saudi-Arabia is on the cards?

    I will simply note that one of ISIS strategies is to draw the west into large, land-wars in Arabic countries. It may work out for us or it might not. Meanwhile I would support the suggestions by Ali as they appear better researched.

  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    I was referring to Islam as practiced by Nawaz - yes, Maajid Nawaz is a reformed person. But his version of Islam (Sunni) happens to be the largest sect and is currently pressing for Sharia in many places in the world. It also has barbaric Sharia already set up (ISIS, Al-Qaeda, Saudi Arabia and others all belong to the Sunni branch of Islam).

    It would be intellectually dishonest to claim that Sunni Islam is undergoing reformation or enlightenment because the moderniser Nawaz has police protection. He's basically a snowflake on a hot stove.

    Invasion of Saudi-Arabia is on the cards? - no, obviously not. Saudi is our ally and largely keeps its crazies in check.

    Droning and bombing Islamists in Syria, Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen and Libya makes sense.

  • bohm
    bohm
    yes, Maajid Nawaz is a reformed person. But his version of Islam (Sunni) happens to be the largest sect and is currently pressing for Sharia in many places in the world.

    I agree with both of these statements

    It would be intellectually dishonest to claim that Sunni Islam is undergoing

    reformation or enlightenment.

    I have pointed to attempts at reforming Islam which is being undertaken by current and former Muslims. If they are ultimately going to be successful in converting a significant number of Muslims I do not know.

    I have never claimed or believed there is such a general "enlightenment" taken place of all Sunis...

    no, obviously not. Saudi is our ally and largely keeps its crazies in check.

    Saudi-Arabia is the largest exporter of political Islam... It keeps its crazies in check insofar they don't threaten the Islamic dictatorship currently in place in Saudi Arabia but otherwise it is exporting Islamism at a rapid rate. When you see a newly build mosque full of crazies in Europe chances are Saudi money is involved.

    Droning and bombing Islamists in Syria, Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen and Libya makes sense.

    I support limited use of drone strikes against militants as I wrote... I also supported the invasion of Afghanistan.

    What kind of military action asides drone strikes is it you propose or is this another case where it is assumed I mean something opposite of what have clearly written?

  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    I have pointed to attempts at reforming Islam which is being undertaken by current and former Muslims - yes, you've mentioned Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who BTW also needs round-the-clock protection from Muslims.

    Once again, it's intellectually dishonest to claim Islam is being currently reformed when you can count reformers on the fingers of your hands and these people need police protection to stop Muslims from killing them.

    Saudi funding of extremist mosques should definitely be stopped.

    What kind of military action asides drone strikes is it you propose - in addition to extensive, wide-ranging drone strikes and bombing, I think Western special forces on the ground is a good idea. Working with Putin against Islamists also makes sense.

  • Simon
    Simon
    Muslims will never in large quantities accept a reformed version of Islam.

    Correct. That is the problem.

    But then I ask again: If not the ones Ali outline, what concrete steps would you advocate to combat Islamism?
    When you see a newly build mosque full of crazies in Europe chances are Saudi money is involved.

    There is a place to start. Stop allowing them free reign to setup bases here with no oversight whatsoever. Time and again it turns out that a local mosque has been the HQ and a hotbed of jihadism.

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