>>You seem to be advancing the idea that there will be some big mystery about who will be saved, and that faith has little to do with it. Also, that it will be impossible until the very end to have even a clue about who God's people really are. You have built this argument by taking a few verses out of context. The scriptures do not support such a conclusion.<<
There is ONLY ONE, that will seperate sheep from goat and weed from wheat. That truth is plain. Those that are truly sheep are revealed when the Son of Man sits on his throne and HE SEPERATES what He deems Good and what He deems bad by HIS standard of judgment.
Are you saying you know who is a sheep and a goat before Christ seperates them? Then there would be no need for a seperating work by Christ.
The sheep will be revealed in the end. The wheat will be revealed in the end. The sons of God will be revealed in the end.
That is ALL IN CONTEXT friend.
>>At Romans 8:19, which you are wresting away from its context, Paul is not talking about some future revelation of who the sons of God are. A simple reading of the surrounding verses shows that he is describing the glory that will be revealed in the sons of God at the last day. If you read the entire chapter, you will see that he is firmly convinced that both he and his readers are among the sons of God, and that their salvation is an accomplished fact.<<
Christ REVEALS by SEPERATING the "good" from the "bad." No one else can do that. No man can seperate HIMSELF either. No one else knows who truly is a sheep except Christ. If the true sheep/wheat are unknown UNTIL they are seperated OUT IN THE END, so are the sons of God veiled until they are revealed. The sons of God are the sheep, the wheat and the good that Christ has judged WORTHY.
>>Jesus' remarks at John 8:15 are given in the context of a dissertation in which he encouraged them to practice love and obedience in their new status as his friends (as opposed to servants). He had chosen them as his friends and for specific areas of service to God. Nothing in the context implies that they had no choice about their own salvation.
There is the POINT. He chose them as sheep IN PERSON. Those early first fruit sheep knew FIRST HAND by being chosen IN PERSON by Christ. Now that the good shepherd is invisible, so are the indentities of who the true sheep are. Until he comes back IN PERSON to gather up ALL OF HIS OWN, then they will be revealed exactly who they are.
>>Likewise, you are reading your own ideas into the scripture at Matthew 25 about some being taken and others left at Jesus' return. Nowhere in that text does Jesus imply that it will be impossible prior to his return to know who his people are; only that his people will be taken to be with him and those who are not his people will not.<<
It's called CHOSEN. Go read the parable of the wheat and the weeds. The DIFFERENCE between them GOOD AND BAD, SHEEP AND GOAT, WHEAT AND WEED, CHOSEN AND UNCHOSEN, would NOT be discerned and REVEALED UNTIL THE END OF THE HARVEST. So you are bluntly WRONG.
Jesus will reveal who was truly HIS when the end shall come, and not one second before.
Any man coming to you saying he is saved and chosen is talking through his buttocks and looking to start his own religion.
Edited by - pomegranate on 29 August 2002 14:58:11