Your handle fits you. Nyuk nyuk nyuk. Anyways...
Gee, how clever. You're the first person who ever thought of that insult (*cough*). You sure you aren't You Know in disguise?
People in the Corinthian congregation were pulling the same stunt, claiming already "saved" before it happened. Paul
rebuked them:
1 Cor 4:7-14
7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And IF you did receive it [Paul was DOUBTING some of them receiving the Holy Spirit], why do you boast as though you did not?
Now there's an interesting point. Those that boast about what they MAY have been given, mean that DID NOT RECEIVE it because they were boasting about it. Hmmm.
It makes it really easy to make your point with the scriptures if you can insert your own thoughts in brackets, doesn't it? The Watchtower uses that trick a lot, too.
The issue in question in chapter 4 of 1 Corinthians is not that of salvation. This chapter is about the relationship between spiritual leaders and the members of the flock of God. Remember that earlier in the letter, he had warned against "boasting about men". People were lining up behind human leaders, rather than trusting in Christ. Paul is chiding some in the congregation who had exalted themselves above others, as if their standing before God did not result from God's gift, but was earned by their own merits. Note that Paul opens the chapter by saying:
So then, men ought to regard us as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the secret things of God.
Apparently, there was no question in Paul's mind as to his own salvation and choosing by God. In saying these words, he also identified himself as a servant of Christ, and subject only to being judged by Christ, not by men. He pointed out that everything they had in a spiritual way had been given to them by God - they had
received it. The question was not as to whether they had certain spiritual possessions - there was no question about that. But Paul was pointing out that they did not generate these things on their own, they had received them from God. Some of them were apparently acting as though they had not.
Paul's wording supports this: "And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?" It is not the "having" that is in question, as your inserted comment would imply. It is the "receiving". For example, you may have a beautiful clay pot in your hand, and tell me that you made it. Next to the chair you are sitting in, however, I see the box it came in and the packing slip with the item listed on it. Clearly, you did not make the pot, but received it in the mail. I say to you, "If you received this pot, why do you brag that you made it?" This wording does not imply that I question the fact that you have the pot; it merely means that I am questioning your claim as to how you got it. Paul's question is similar. He does not question the Corinthians' possession of gifts from God (including salvation); he questions the fact that they brag as if these things were the result of their own efforts.
8 Already you have all you want! [Being saved already with eternal life?] Already you have become rich! [Being saved already with eternal life?] You have become kings-and that without us! [By being saved already with eternal life BEFORE THE APOSTLES??] How I wish that you really had become kings so that we might be kings with you! [Paul wasn't even saved yet, how is they were claiming such a wrongful boast?]It sounds to me like some in the Corintian congregation were claiming being saved before it actually happened. Don't you? Paul was saying, "Corinthian brothers, How is that true, that you claim to have it all before us? We the Apostles, are all still dirt bags countering bad with good, but you have it ALL already? You are kings already? Saved already? NOT!!!"
They were certainly claiming something that hadn't happened yet, but that something was not salvation itself. Rather, it was just what Paul said it was - becoming kings along with Christ! You seem unable to see a difference between salvation and glorification. There is a vast difference. When we receive Christ, we are saved. That is really the beginning of the Christian journey. At that point, God begins to work in our lives, to mold us into the sort of persons he wants us to be. Paul mentions this at Philippians 1:3-11:
3 I thank my God every time I remember you. 4 In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy 5 because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
7 It is right for me to feel this way about all of you, since I have you in my heart; for whether I am in chains or defending and confirming the gospel, all of you share in God's grace with me. 8 God can testify how I long for all of you with the affection of Christ Jesus.
9 And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, 10 so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ,
11 filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ--to the glory and praise of God.
These were not unsaved people; all of them "share[d] in God's grace with me [Paul]" (v. 7). But God was working in them, developing Christian qualities, and would continue to do so right up to the "day of Christ". This is why certain Christian qualities are spoken of as the "fruit of righteousness" (v.11) and, in Galatians, the "fruitage of the Spirit". Fruitage does not appear from nowhere. It comes from a fruit tree. Neither does the tree have to strain itself, grunting and groaning, to produce fruit; the fruit appears naturally. Likewise with Christians. The Holy Spirit is already living in them. This changes their lives, and the evidence of this change is the fruitage of the Spirit:, love, joy, peace, etc. Others, who have not established such a relationship with God, do not manifest such fruitage.
I'm not going to cite the rest of the chapter, in which you inserted your own thoughts in brackets, because it's just more of the same. You try to apply the words of Paul to the question of whether his hearers have been saved, when that is clearly not what he is talking about. He rather sarcastically points out the degree to which some in the congregation have exalted themselves, even far above the apostles who were appointed by Christ Himself! In contrast, he showed how he and the other apostles had responded as Christians to offenses, and had suffered on behalf of the Gospel.
As one additional point, I note the long list of scriptures you cite to sunstarr in an attempt to prove that the Bible is written only for the "chosen ones". I wonder whether you realize that each of these scriptures, in which chosen ones are personally identified, disproves your claim that the identities of the chosen ones will not be known until the return of Christ?
