"Witnesses Now For Jesus" convention ...

by borgfree 101 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  pomegranate

  >>Sorry, but I don't see how pointing out misapplied scriptures and out-of-context quotations constitutes "claiming expertise".<<

  If you claim misapplication, then you know correct application. That would be expertise. Though I believe it is more like your PERSONAL OPINION as I don't see God sitting beside you.

  >>Nor was the intent my personal exaltation.<<

  That is your PERSONAL opinion. It is your PERSONAL exaltation. Because your words certainly are not from God.

  >>What you have to understand is that a lot of JW's and those recently out of the JW's lurk here and read what is posted.<<

  What makes you think I don't understand that, I am one who has left. I have the right to express my faith the way I believe without you being a "JW" saying I'm wrong, believe the way I believe. I'll let God judge me and my beliefs not you, got it?

  >>When someone blatantly misrepresents scripture - as by citing only half of Romans 8:24, and ignoring the fact that the other half of the verse contradicts the argument you are using it to support - I feel an obligation to point it out.<<

  I belive my personal understanding to be perfectly contextual and not misrepresented. You state your opinion about YOUR understanding, that is all.

  To discuss your position again, if you are claiming saved status already, then you have no need for HOPE or waiting patiently for redemption, which Paul advises. Even Paul said this:

  Rom 8:23-24
  we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

  If you are saved already, then you are ALREADY adopted as a son and your body has been already redeemed. Paul was STILL waiting for that while he was in the sinful flesh. Sorry friend, redeption can't happen UNTIL YOU SHED THE SINFUL FLESH either by death or the transformation in the end. That is how redemption works. You turn in one thing (corrupt fleshly body) and receive another (incorrupt spiritual body). Then your saved. Which is a HOPE until it happens. That's how I understand it. ME. MINE. THE WAY I BELIEVE IT.

  Which is why I believe Paul said this, "For in thisHOPE (adoption and redemption, THE CONTEXT) we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all.

  If you have redemption ALREADY and seen it (which even Paul didn't have while he was alive in the corrupt flesh), then there is NO MORE HOPE AT ALL.

  Paul continues, "Who hopes for what he already has?

  How can you hope to be saved if you have it already?

  So, since you are saved already, you no longer have hope of being "saved", because you have it already. So, you have no hope of being saved, while folks like me, have hope of being saved. I wait for it. PATIENTLY

  Paul says. "But if we hope for what we do not yet have [adoption and redemption, WHICH IS THE CONTEXT] and, we wait for it patiently.

  Adoption and redemption is being saved. Of which, like Paul, while I am yet alive in the sinful body, do NOT have. I patiently hope and WAIT for, adoption, redemption and salvation.

  That is FULLY contextual as I understand it. That is MY PERSONAL BELIEF.

  >>I consider such misuse of scripture to be both dangerous and dishonest.<<

  You are setting YOUR OWN STANDARD of OPINION for what is dangerous and dishonest and applying it to me. I am NOT telling anyone what to believe like you. I am stating what I believe for myself. If there is ANYONE dangerous here, it is a man judging others to be dangerous and dishonest by what they personally believe. Who the heck do you think you are? Christ Almighty?

  >>No one is questioning your right to believe whatever you want to.<<

  You most certainly are, and condemning it as DISHONEST MR. JUDGE SIR.

  >>I do, however, question the appropriateness of claiming that your belief is biblical, when the very scriptures you are citing to support it in fact do not.<<

  As I have done above, stated my belief IN CONTEXT with what Paul is saying as I UNDERSTAND IT. Paul's words assuredly support what I am saying, whether you PERSONALLY want to believe it or not. The way I understand it may not be the way you understand it, BUT THAT DOE NOT MAKE ME DISHONEST MR. JUDGE.

  >>Actually, it was your arguments that I said were "twisted," not you personally.<<

  A man IS what he believes, especially in relation to his beliefs in God.

  >>I am not righteous; but Christ's righteousness is imparted to me as a free gift.<<

  Prove that it was even given to you. You can't. It's just your mouth flapping. I always say if you can't prove what comes out of your mouth, then shut up and sit down.

  >>I am well aware that there are scriptural arguments both ways on doctrines such as predestination and the security of the believer.<<

  Oh yes. And the way you understand is the right Way huh? And the way I understand it is dishonest?

  >>What got my knickers in a twist was not so much your position on these ideas as the fact that you were isung scripture dishonestly to support them.<<

  Again, you impart me to be dishonest. If I am honestly portraying what I believe to be true, how is it I am being dishonest? Dishonest would mean I know what is true and am portraying just the opposite FULLY INTENTIONAL. That is a BLATANT INSULT friend, of which any man representing the true God would recognize and promptly apologize. If I am being honest in my beliefs and you have intentionally portrayed me as dishonest in my beliefs, are you still saved?

  >>I would also claim verse 13 as my own. I'm nothing special, just a sinner like anyone else.<<

  If you're saved already, then why do you need God's mercy? Mercy would only be needed for those NOT SAVED, like me. So you don't need God's mercy and you no longer have any hope. I don't get it.

  Also, it seems to me according to the Bible, that once one is born again and saved like yourself, they no longer go on sinning. Yet you say you are still a sinner. How does that work?

  1 John 3:9
  9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

  The context is quite EASY and obvious on this text so don't play the "out of context card." If you're still sinning like you just admitted, then you cannot born again yet right? Do you do everything RIGHT?
  
  >>But I claim the promises that Christ made that my sins are forgiven. You need to read verse 14, too. It says that the publican "went home justified before God". Because of his sincere repentance, his sins were forgiven. Yours can be, too, and you can know that they are.<<

  I would never be so presumptous.

  >>If I read this scripture the way that you are asking me to, it would imply that we can't know anything at all, wouldn't it?<<

  First, I did not ask you to read it in ANY way at all. You have made an inappropriate assumption.

  Now you have TOTALLY missed the context. It applies to BOTH of us. We both know nothing because we THINK we know something. I love God, and He knows me.

  >>Frankly, you lost my respect when you mishandled the word of God.<<

  You can't lose what you never had, and you never had respect for me. In order to respect me, you would need to know me. You don't know me so you never respected me. Handling God's Word aright is going to be a judgment call made by HIM not you. You show yourself to be arrogant and self righteous when you speak such personal opinion as the right way.

  >>I have no problem with people disagreeing with me about doctrine. I may argue the point with them, but I'll do so respectfully.<<

  First, I don't believe calling someone dishonest shows the least amount of respect. As a matter of fact, I'd call it arrogant, rude and nothing that anyone truly representing the true God would do.

  >>But I will not be respectful when someone dishonestly misrepresents scripture;<<

  I believe you may have just pulled down your un-Christian pants and exposed yourself:

  1 Peter 2:17
  17 Show proper respect to everyone:

  1 Peter 3:15
  But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

  A true follower of God would respect everyone, because they are in no position to judge ANYTHING in regard to the health and honesty of another man's heart.

  >>that is a grave sin, and I will oppose it vigorously.<<

  My grave sin?? You can judge another man's grave sin? You can judge the honesty of another's heart?

  With all due respect to you sir: May God be your judge and have mercy on your soul, as I will never judge you.

  good evening.

  Edited by - pomegranate on 3 September 2002 23:16:13
• 

  RR

  Can't you two get along?
• 

  pomegranate

  1 Cor 11:19
  19 No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval.
• 

  NeonMadman

  I've said my piece. I'm done with this conversation. Pomegranate continues to twist both scripture and my words.

  Yes, Pom, I think you are very dishonest. You have shown plenty of evidence of it in this thread. You continue to cite half scriptures, and now you are adding your own interpretations to the things I've said as well.

  I could refute the interpretations you advance, but you obviously have your mind made up, and I've no further desire to discuss it with you. Frankly, my main interest at the outset was mainly to keep others from thinking that your poisonous ideas were somehow scriptural, just because you listed a bunch of carefully selected and neatly trimmed-from-their-context scriptures.

  "Claiming misapplication" as I have done in this thread is a simple matter of reading around the scriptures to see that they in no way support what you are using them to say. If I excise from its context Satan's admonition to Jesus to throw himself (Jesus) down from the temple , and interpret it to mean that all Christians should throw themselves down from temples, am I misapplying scripture? Doesn't it say in scripture, "Throw yourself down from the temple?" If I advance that as correct understanding, citing only the words that agree with my ideas, and making sure to leave out those which contradict, am I not being dishonest? That is the sort of thing you have done repeatedly in this thread. Under those circumstances, I have no more compunctions about calling you dishonest, any more than I would hesitate to call you a fornicator if I found you in bed with a person who is not your mate.

  You try to twist matters in your latest comment to make it seem that I am calling you dishonest because you believe differently than I do. Not so. You are dishonest because you misrepresent scripture in the way I described. I have no problem with anyone believing differently than I do, but if they claim their belief is scriptural, it had better be based upon an honest reading of the text, or I'm going to call them on it.

  I always say if you can't prove what comes out of your mouth, then shut up and sit down.

  And yet, you don't seem to be doing that, do you?

  Edited by - NeonMadman on 4 September 2002 9:27:0
• 

  pomegranate

  You are the one claiming and boasting and exalting yourself "I'm saved! I'm saved!" You are the one giving yourself honor.

  Soooo...You are the one that has the burden of proof, since you are the one making the grandiose claim. I have NO PROBLEM with you making that claim, it is your right as a man with a mouth.

  I make no such claim for myself, so I have nothing to prove. I willingly sit at the back as a good for nothing toilet cleaing janitor until I am TOLD to sit up front. Until then, pomegranate is shoe shine boy.

  Luke 14:8-11
  8 "When someone invites you to a wedding feast, do not take the place of honor, for a person more distinguished than you may have been invited. 9 If so, the host who invited both of you will come and say to you, 'Give this man your seat.' Then, humiliated, you will have to take the least important place. 10 But when you are invited, take the lowest place, so that when your host comes, he will say to you, 'Friend, move up to a better place.' Then you will be honored in the presence of all your fellow guests. 11 For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

  You are already taking the place of honor are you not?

  How can you move up to a better place if you are already there?
• 

  NeonMadman

  You are the one claiming and boasting and exalting yourself "I'm saved! I'm saved!" You are the one giving yourself honor.

  Soooo...You are the one that has the burden of proof, since you are the one making the grandiose claim. I have NO PROBLEM with you making that claim, it is your right as a man with a mouth.

  I and others on this thread have cited a large number of scriptures that demonstrate, by any honest reading of them, that it is possible to know that one has salvation. It's not a grandiose claim, it's a scriptural claim. You, on the other hand, have arrogantly falsified scripture repeatedly to attempt to nullify the promises in the scriptures we have shown you.

  Can I prove to you that I have accepted those promises? Of course not. Nor do I have to. My salvation is not your concern, but you have attempted to make it your concern by denying that the promises plainly made in the Bible are not valid, and by denying that it is possible that I could have been saved.

  I make no such claim for myself, so I have nothing to prove. I willingly sit at the back as a good for nothing toilet cleaing janitor until I am TOLD to sit up front. Until then, pomegranate is shoe shine boy.

  Sounds like the JW's have trained you well. Jesus offers much more. He expects our faithful service, but promises great rewards. He says we can be confident of those rewards. While we should not seek the honor of men, we should not be afraid to claim what God promises, either. Otherwise, we might be viewed like the man who hid his talents rather than investing them.

  You are already taking the place of honor are you not?

  How emphatically can I say this? No, I am not!!! All honor goes to Christ Jesus. He made the sacrifice to pay for my sins. I have done nothing to deserve salvation. All I have done is to accept the gift He offered. But it would be disrespectful for me to accept His gift and then doubt whether He had actually given it, would it not?
• 

  pomegranate

  >>>>I and others on this thread have cited a large number of scriptures that demonstrate, by any honest reading of them, that it is possible to know that one has salvation.<<

  It seems to me all I have seen is scriptures that hold out the HOPE of being saved, not that one is saved before it happens. As Paul stated so simply, "IN THIS HOPE we were saved." Hope depicts something in the future that is yet to be, not something in the present that already is.

  As I have asked you before, if you have what everyone else is hoping for, where is your hope? As Paul said, if you have it already, then there is no hope, because who hopes for what they already have?

  I don't have it, but I hope for it, and wait for it patiently. You supposedly have it already, so what are you hoping for? I do not understand your belief in CONTEXT with what Paul is saying as he is surely talking about this very thing we are discussing.

  >>It's not a grandiose claim, it's a scriptural claim. You, on the other hand, have arrogantly falsified scripture repeatedly to attempt to nullify the promises in the scriptures we have shown you.<<

  We? I beleive you are the only one thus far claiming the position of honor, that being already saved with eternal life, before the King actually gives it out. I do not nullify any promise by Jesus, I wait for him to deliver it. Of which I have HOPE. Of which scripture is plain, that the undeserved reward is given out at the END, not in the middle.

  >>Can I prove to you that I have accepted those promises? Of course not. Nor do I have to.<<

  It has NOTHING to do with you proving your accepting them, it has to do with you proving that it has even been offered to you and you are IN POSSESSION OF IT. Scriptually, if you did have it, you would have stoppped sinning and be doing everything right, and you would be showing all due respect EVEN TO AN STAUNCH UNBELIEVER (of which I am not). But, by your own words, you are still a sinner, which to me disqualifies your claim, and by your very own words, you show me NO RESPECT, which also scriptually disqualifies your claim .

  I believe no one can accept that which has not been offered yet. Yes the promise is there, I do not deny it. I know it will be offered to some who are chosen in a future time, but I will never be so presumptous that I have it already, because I don't.

  >>My salvation is not your concern, but you have attempted to make it your concern by denying that the promises plainly made in the Bible are not valid, and by denying that it is possible that I could have been saved<<

  1. Your salvation is my concern, I hope you attain it. 2. I do not deny any promise made to those God chooses to give salvation to. 3. In my understanding, I do deny that anyone is saved already, before God has actually done it. Because if you have it already, your hope is lost.

  I hope I am saved, and wish it were true that I was saved already.
  You claim you are saved already, and are glad you are not like the pomegranate, who is ONLY hoping to be saved.

  I believe the contrast in our beliefs are as far apart as the Pharisee and the tax collector.

  >>Sounds like the JW's have trained you well.<<

  My beliefs are nothing like JW's, and your insults are getting old.

  >>Jesus offers much more. He expects our faithful service, but promises great rewards.<<

  I believe Jesus expects nothing from me. How can he? I do nothing good. I am a born sinner bound in corruption. Sin begets sin, so there is nothing I can do besides that, sin. My works are of no use to him, so if there is to be a saving of the pomegranate, it will not be because of faithful service, because I cannot faithfully serve, I am a corrupted vessel. A sinner like me, cannot be faithful on his own. Grace is an undserved gift. I believe the reward is given NOT because it is due for faithful service, the reward is given because IT ISN'T due for ANYTHING. It is given out of God's good will and pleasure. Because He darn well feels like doing it. That's what I believe.

  >>He says we can be confident of those rewards.<<

  I believe I can be confident in those rewards, and yet NOT have received them. I don't have to have the undeserved gift in my POSSESSION in order to put my faith and confidence in it. Actually, I believe your understanding even undermines faith. "Faith is being sure of what we HOPE FOR and certain of what we do not see."

  I will add my understandings to this in brackets:

  "Faith is being sure of what we HOPE FOR [Being saved for eternal life] and certain of what we do not see. [Father and Jesus]"

  If you have the undeserved gift already, you no longer have any need for the faith of being sure in the hope, as you already have what the hope is for and have seen the unseen already.

  1 Peter 1:13-14
  Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed.

  I do believe Christ has not yet been revealed, so the grace of being saved cannot have been given out yet, because scripture says it is to be given out when Christ is to be revealed.

  Salvation is ONLY A HOPE, at least that is what it is for me and the way I believe.

  >>While we should not seek the honor of men, we should not be afraid to claim what God promises, either. Otherwise, we might be viewed like the man who hid his talents rather than investing them.<<

  How can I be seeking the honor of other men when I feel I am a toilet cleaning janitor and my other job is shoe shine boy? Surely, someone who is saved by God deserves more honor than I could ever imagine. I am confident of one thing, I clean a mean toilet bowl, and I shine a killer shoe. But I will never assume that which hasn't been given to me. I prefer to inherit rather than assume. An inheritance is lawfully given. An assumption is illegally taking. That's what I believe.

  >>He made the sacrifice to pay for my sins. I have done nothing to deserve salvation. All I have done is to accept the gift He offered. But it would be disrespectful for me to accept His gift and then doubt whether He had actually given it, would it not?<<

  1 Peter 1:13b, "...set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed."

  My hope is firmly in place. Is yours?

  Edited by - pomegranate on 4 September 2002 15:23:13
• 

  NeonMadman

  It seems to me all I have seen is scriptures that hold out the HOPE of being saved, not that one is saved before it happens. As Paul stated so simply, "IN THIS HOPE we were saved." Hope depicts something in the future that is yet to be, not something in the present that already is.

  Maybe you should read them again. Here are some of the scriptures that have been cited in this thread that you have apparently not seen:

  John 3:36 - He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

  John 5:24 - Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

  John 6:54 - he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

  John 3:18
  Whoeverbelieves in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[

  John 11 24 Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
  25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

  John 20 30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

  John 1027 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

  You are correct that hope is for something in the future, something that we do not already have. But note carefully: While Christians do have a blessed hope, what they hope for is not salvation. Salvation is the present possession of all true Christians, as the above verses show. Even the verse you cited partially (and, again, out of context) acknowledges salvation as a past event: , "IN THIS HOPE we were saved." Not will be, could be, might be. Were saved. Past tense. Accomplished fact. So, for what do Christians hope? Let's read the context that you omitted:

  Romans 8:23-25: 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

  The issue of salvation is settled. But Christians alive on earth have not yet been glorified with Christ. Their bodies have not been redeemed. They have not yet "put on incorruption" and "put on immortality" For that they must wait until God's appointed time. But those things are not the same as being saved in the first place. Those are the final outcomes that will happen to persons who have been saved prior to that time. That is the thing for which Christians hope.

  I beleive you are the only one thus far claiming the position of honor, that being already saved with eternal life, before the King actually gives it out.

  I am far from the only one. Have you never spoken with an evangelical Christian? The vast majority of Bible-believing Christians today accept the teaching that salvation is a permanent event. Theologians call it the doctrine of "eternal security of the believer". It is accepted as a completely orthodox and Biblical doctrine in most Protestant denominations. It also has a solid basis in the scriptures.

  Scriptually, if you did have it, you would have stoppped sinning and be doing everything right, and you would be showing all due respect EVEN TO AN STAUNCH UNBELIEVER (of which I am not).

  The Bible never says that any human will stop sinning when he becomes a Christian. If that were true, most of Paul's letters would never have had to be written, since they dealt with the effects of various types of sin in the churches.

  As far as my being respectful, I consider myself to be very respectful in most circumstances. I think the vast majority of my posts in this forum support that. I am willing to discuss the scriptures with both believers and unbelievers, and I have no problem dealing respectfully with them. However, I do become indignant when I see someone deliberately distorting the Word of God. Not just misinterpreting - there's plenty of room for discussion about what certain passages mean, and I might be right or wrong about them. But, as I've pointed out repeatedly, you cite half verses, take a few words out of context, whatever it takes to advance your own idea. You did it again with Romans 8:23-25 in your most recent post, even after I had previously pointed out your out-of-context use of the verses. This goes beyond misinterpretation into the realm of dishonesty. That, I cannot respect.

  I hope I am saved, and wish it were true that I was saved already.
  You claim you are saved already, and are glad you are not like the pomegranate, who is ONLY hoping to be saved. I believe the contrast in our beliefs are as far apart as the Pharisee and the tax collector.

  The difference, of course, is that the Pharisee expected to be justified by his own works under the Law, whereas the tax collector recognized that he was a sinner, and asked for God's mercy. That is the position all Christians are in, really. We have recognized that we are sinners, and, in effect, thrown ourselves on God's mercy. The scriptures promise that, when we do that, we become children of God, and our salvation (NOT our glorification) becomes an accomplished fact. God then begins to work in us to bring about our sanctification (being made holy), but that sanctification will not be fully accomplished until we are glorified. But God promises that, once begun, he will finish the work.

  I will add my understandings to this in brackets:

  "Faith is being sure of what we HOPE FOR [Being saved for eternal life] and certain of what we do not see. [Father and Jesus]"

  Unfortunately, your bracketed additions do not harmonize with the rest of scripture. As I pointed out above, the hope of Christians is, not their salvation, but their glorification along with Christ. That's the problem with those doggone brackets - people add their own understandings as if it belonged right there in the Bible. Does the phrase "all [other] things" sound familiar at all?

  Edited by - NeonMadman on 5 September 2002 14:52:12
• 

  Satanus

  Neon

  It's interesting that all the scriptures that speak of eternal life in the present tense are from john. It was the last or 2nd last book written. It has been described as having gnostic undertones, and the gnostics called it their own.

  SS
• 

  pomegranate

  God will judge who has TRULY BELIEVED in righteousness, because some will be believing falsely, and that is something only God will judge, of which ALL THINGS will be revealed in the end.