When we die...

by Finallyfree12 156 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  pacloc

  If you don't want Christians to sit on their hands, then why did you think it was "crazy" for humans to work on the problems of disease and death? Isn't it a waste of time?

  I did not say it was crazy to try to work on problems of disease and death, nor did I say it was a waste of time. You are mixing Jdub reasoning again. I said it is crazy to think that we will rid the Earth of disease and death, and I was more emphasizing death. I know that we have made great advances in treating disease and I think that is a beautiful thing, I'm speaking generally that I do not believe we will ever get rid of all disease, but most surely not death, which to a Christian is really just a terrible disease.

  There is so much anger toward God and people that still believe in God after leaving the Cult. Why can't you realize that true Christians are beautiful people too. Just because you have proven to yourself you do not believe in God anymore, you must treat others that do as ignorant? I really hope you guys talking have PHDs or something. I'm not ignorant as far as the world goes either, I have a bachelors in Civil Engineering and am a Professional Engineer. I rely on science for my livlihood.
• 

  Bella15

  I believe that I have ETERNAL LIFE now ...
• 

  Apognophos

  I said it is crazy to think that we will rid the Earth of disease and death, and I was more emphasizing death.

  Okay, I see.

  I know that we have made great advances in treating disease and I think that is a beautiful thing, I'm speaking generally that I do not believe we will ever get rid of all disease...

  It sure would be a problem for Christians if we did. Admittedly there are a lot of diseases that come from mutating organisms, but at some point we will probably be adapting to them faster than they adapt to our countermeasures. So I think if you look at scientific progress, and don't let your faith tell you what can and can't be allowed to happen, you can probably imagine humans achieving a world without disease.

  ...but most surely not death, which to a Christian is really just a terrible disease.

  Right, well hopefully nobody does anything stupid like curing that. Death is a very important part of the workings of the world. Curing it would be a disaster for the planet.
• 

  pacloc

  I believe that I have ETERNAL LIFE now ...

  Now that is more of what I am talking about. It takes a while for us to realize this concept though. I know it took me a few years to explain it so simply. Now having eternal life, and looking forward to the resurrection are not exactly the same thing, the resurrection is the high point of eternal life in that all the saints will be complete. We still have the Kingdom of God in strong real way right now, but the Kingdom of God will be greater once all things are holy.
• 

  cofty

  We are all comprised of energy and light and exist in one of eleven dimensions. Thats physics. Physics also shows we can exist in two places at once. Its not as simple as cofty would have you believe. - Villagegirl

  You are making assertions about theoretical physics. Its fascinating and it may even turn out to be true. For the moment its just a hypothesis, and in the context of this thread, a total red herring.

  None of it makes the slightest difference to many things we already know to be true and it holds out no comfort to theistic superstitions.

  Believers who want to argue for a spirit world, or angels and demons or life after death have all of their work still to do. The onus is on those making extraordinary claims to support them with evidence.
• 

  LV101

  When we die ...

  Jesus stated there is life after death - how does one prove that is not true?
• 

  Phizzy

  " The onus is on those making extraordinary claims to support them with evidence. " Cofty.

  I agree, and extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence.
• 

  jgnat

  LV101, Jesus' claim is extraordinary, so the burden of proof is his and ours. Even Jesus said it is not for us to know what happens after death. I say since we cannot know, I cannot say.
• 

  jgnat

  In a single sentence, yes belief in God equals belief in justice and no belief in God equals no justice. - pacloc

  So all modern innovations of justice – since Jesus’ time – are imperfect? The supremacy of Justice died on the cross?

  You realize that Muslims work out their faith by trying to follow their prophet along the five-fold path. The more perfectly they follow, the closer they come to perfection. How different is this from the Christian’s intention as you describe? Jesus also was celibate, an itinerant preacher without a home, with no natural children here on earth. Are Christians to follow this example as well?

  You describe God as perfect in truth and wisdom, and the closer we try and follow that ideal the closer we come to justice. I understand the ideal, but there are some horrific bible examples where God’s justice included wiping out a lot of innocents. Also through the middle ages there were wars, genocides, and pogroms, instigated by Christians, which would naturally make outsiders wary of the claim that Christians are closest to God and therefore perfect justice.

  But if it is up to each one of us to have our own system of justice, we will eventually fight till one prevails. – pacloc

  As imperfect as we are, humans have also set up systems of democracy, cooperation, negotiation and mediation to work out a better solution. It’s not always through violence. We have several modern examples where local cultures are working through reconciliation and justice their own way, and it might be said, are superior to our Judeo-Christian setup.

  Also, an irritant, describing yourself “as Christians, we….” Christians are not unified in these thoughts, as I am also a self-declared Christian.
• 

  cofty

  So you do claim to have a standard of justice? Who's standard do you use? - pacloc

  Let's start by rejecting the standard of Yahweh, the capricious Bronze Age deity who advocated genocide, kidnap, slavery, forced marriage/rape, misogyny, infanticide, homophobia and racism.

  Jesus demonstrated his lack of moral compass when he declared concerning this deity, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment."

  I believe that an objective standard of morality is not only possible without god, but that it is ONLY possible without reference to god. If you want to discuss it specifically I am more than happy to do so on a new thread for that purpose.

  Human effort will cure the world of disease and death? Sure thing. And you call theists crazy, you really believe humans will figure out how to stop death, let's start with cancer and down syndrome. - pacloc

  I never anywhere claimed humans will "cure" death. Why are you twisting my words?

  It is a fear of death and an irrational fantasy about eternal life that lead to the sort of crazy superstitions you preach. We will probably continue to make significant progress at preventing and treating the diseases of old age. Only a dullard would dismiss the astonishing progress that has been made so far.