designs: why are you bringing Jews into this? I thought this debate was based on the Bible as we know it, OT + NT. I believe the Bible is complete, real and true it is fulness. I'm not trying to debate that issue. I also believe it has been accurately translated. Except for the NWT ofc.
Trinitarians! Who is Jesus Christ's father the Holy Spirit or the Father?
by booker-t 199 Replies latest watchtower bible
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designs
Jonza- The Bible is very divided, especially between Jews and the OT and christians and their NT. Nothing in Isaiah 53 describes the Jesus of the NT. Jesus of the NT fails every test of the Jewish Messiah, every single one.
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cofty
Jonza - I am in the UK. Between sleep, work, cycling and food I have been away from the computer for a while.
I will get back to you later this evening.
I am not "without answers" but I am not the one making incomprehensible claims about god, you are.
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Legacy
Hi,
I just thought about this the other day...Most folks believe God & Jesus are the same....all I can say is....Jesus did a good job of imitating his Father, the entire world thinks he is God himself....Is that a bad thing...wasn't that the point...for Jesus to come to earth & peach & teach & imitate his father ? If we obey Jesus it's the same as obeying his Father God...a friend of mine said something so profound...
"If you fight with one, then what? You fight both. If you go along with
one, you go along with the other one by default"....When you come to think of it....isn't it true...So witnesses say Satan has blinded many....ummm, maybe not..Most folks believe in God/Jesus, whether they are the same or not, most folks believe in Jesus dying for our sins, & the resurrection...Here is where most doctrines differ....will we come back as angels in heaven or a paradise earth, or be reincarnated....No one knows...is the God's kingdom in heaven or in our hearts...
All that to say again....Jesus really reflected his father to the utmost...No wonder everyone feels God & Jesus are the same. Thumbs up Jesus!!!!!!
Legacy
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factfinder
Chalem- Jews do not beleive the messiah is almighty God. God does not become a man nor does he die, nor can he die.
The Jewish idea of messiah is not the same as the christian idea.
My relatives have not accepted Jesus for this reason.
Chalem, as Designs brings out-the Jewish veiw of the messiah is different from the christian view. Jews do not see any references to Jesus in the Bible, remember, the Christian scriptures are not a part of the Jewish Bible.
Judaism does not teach original sin or that messiah will die for our sins.
All of Jesus' early followers were Jews and none of them believed in a triune god.
The wts does not understand either, the Jewish view of messiah, this is why their reasoning on how Jesus fits the prophecies did not interest relatives I used to try to witness to long ago.
Jesus is NOT the Jewish messiah, he is the christan one.
In Judaism, Jesus is unimportant, but Christendom makes him into a triune God, thus Jewish people have no interest in him.
When I became a witness I learned to accept their view of Jesus as it fit the scriptures (as a witness I accepted the entire Bible.) I could never accept a triune god! But since learning the tatt it all became academic to me anyway.
I'm kind of becoming agnostic now.
But you cannot expect to use the Hebrew scriptures to try to "prove" the trinity. Jehovah is the one and only God, not Jesus, not holy spirit, not a trinity. There is no God before him and none after him, regardless of what christians later decided to teach, trying to merge the idea of one God and the pagan trinity together.
It is important to understand the Jewish view of the messiah because all of Jesus' early followers (until 36 CE) were Jewish and that is what they believed. Not that Jesus is part of a trinity.
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Clambake
If you look at the old testament, there seems to be a plurality to ( God, Jehovah, LORD, yahweh, ).
When you read the Gospels you see Jesus claimed to co-exist with his father as one.
When you read the Paul letters you see he applies he seems to apply the same old testament passages containing the tetragrammaton to both god and jesus.
Who did the authors of the Gospels and Paul believe Jesus was ?? The arch angel Michael or God in the flesh. Keep it simple stupid.
Just cause I don’t fully understand it doesn’t mean I can’t accept it. I just believe what the authors of the bible believed.
I find Jehovah witnesses seem to spend more time trying to disprove the than teach it.
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cofty
Jonza
You are still evading the difficult question.
I am not denying that worship is rendered to Jesus in the bible - this is particularly clear in Revelation.
Please see the following thread for an article I wrote concerning the NT understanding of Jesus.
Jehovah's Witnesses View of Jesus Compared to the Early Church...
Jesus the man worships His Father, I don't see why God needs to worship Jesus.
The resurrected and risen Jesus refers to the father as "my god". Numerous NT authors alo refer to "the god and father of our lord Jesus christ".
1 - A god is an object of worship.
2 - The father is the god of Jesus.
3 - Therefore Jesus worships the father.
Unless you really want to assert that Jesus is, in some odd way, also the god of the father then you have a intractable problem regarding equality of the father and the son.
You need to deal with this before we can move forward.
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cofty
Just cause I don’t fully understand it doesn’t mean I can’t accept it - Clambake
That sounds like another way of saying that you prefer to focus on data that confirms your conclusion and would rather not be troubled by data that doesn't fit.
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Laika
I find it a bit irritating that booker-t turns up on this board every couple of weeks and starts a few new threads (usually against born agains) which he rarely seems to revisit, perhaps doesn't even read.
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jonza
If you read the context of 1 Corinthians 11:3 it is talking about the authority of God over Christ. That has nothing to do with importance or who's better. The context is all about how man is the head of the woman just as God is the head of Christ. Authority not inequality. Do you consider a man to be more important or better than woman because he is her head? He is submissive to the Father especially since becoming a man but that does not mean He is less than God. John 10:30 Jesus says "I and the Father are one" indicating their equality.
I've not evaded any question so far. I've answered all of your questions. So far, you have answered none of mine.