Oh look JW-style "proof-texting".
Trinitarians! Who is Jesus Christ's father the Holy Spirit or the Father?
by booker-t 199 Replies latest watchtower bible
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keyser soze
I love these debates that try to determine whose fiction is more grounded in reality.
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jonza
cofty, try reading those verses in context. It's certainly not proof texting.
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cofty
jonza - I know everyone of those verses in context, I used to preach them.
The trinity doctrine is not in the bible. It is a later development that forced back into the text.
The concept would be anathema to the apostles.
You cannot explain it without contradicting yourself.
Please explain how the father can be "the god of Jesus". I am referring to the resurrected Jesus, not just human Jesus.
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Band on the Run
There is no support for the Trinity or the JW unitarian approach in the Bible. Christology is not that important in the Gospels. We are left with extrapolitions on both sides. I find tradition important. It may be important than Bible verses. A priest refused to take a hard line for the Nicene Creed and said it was merely an attempt to embrace all the ways humans encounter the Divine. Over the years, Jesus as God has become comfortable for me. I find a unitarian Jesus despicable. The fleshiness of the divine is important.
I no longer see the Bible as some magic book. The GB are fools. I will emrace a Church Father or Mother anyday. Jesus was capable of explaining how he stood with the Father. These ideas are so important to us yet they were not important in the First Century. I've been reading Bart Ehrman's latest book on how Jesus became God. It is a hard read for me.
The Witness approach is not supported by scripture. I see no reason to follow what the GB decides. In fact, I am inclined to adopt the oppposite of their "teaching."
I find it comical that others here will make it easy for the rest of us to understand the Trinity. Pls include me as someone has many questions and no answers. People on this site are always willing to impose their views on you. Ah, yes, I am irrational and a fool. Well, Paul wrote about the folly of Christ. Anyone who does not completely agree is irrational. Chutzpah!
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cofty
I will emrace a Church Father or Mother anyday. - BOTR
I am sorry to hear that.
I'm all grown up and don't need a substitute father or mother to tell me what to think or what to value.
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jonza
That is because the concept of the trinity is that Jesus and God are not the same person but are both in very nature God. The Father is the God of Jesus in terms of position, but that does not mean Jesus is also not God. He is called God several times throughout the Bible, including being called the "I AM" Who is Jehovah. How can you explain that there is only one God; no God before him, no God after him; only one true God, no other creator than Jehovah? Yet Jesus is also said to be God and said to be the I AM and the First and the Last and the Alpha and Omega? Do you believe in multiple Gods? Is Jesus a false god, if there is only one true God?
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cofty
jonza - I don't believe in any gods.
Showing that Jesus came to be idnetified with YHWH in the minds of later writers is not the same thing as the trinity.
By the way you seem to be proposing tritheism.
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MeanMrMustard
Although I am no longer a theist, I find that the Trinitarian concept of the Biblical God is closer to that of an Unitarian. The WT flurts with "the Word" in John 1:1 as being qualitatively God, and yet, back away from the implications of that (WT 11/15/75, Insight, Vol 2 p. 54). In the end, however, I think the correct viewpoint is that having the correct model of the nature of God is not important. I don't find Trintarians deserving of damnation (as JWs teach) any more than Unitarians are deserving of damnation (as some Trintarians teach). I think the Bible is unclear for a reason - it doesn't really matter as a Christian.
MMM
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jonza
I'm not promoting tritheism at all. That is not the concept of the trinity. The concept of the trinity is a monothestic but it is made up of three individual persons. It is a way to explain the paradox in Bible of there only being one true God: YHWH. However the Father is called God, the Holy Spirit is called God and Jesus is called God several times.
It is a limited concept for our tiny brains to attempt to understand the unlimited infinite greatness of God.