Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery 278 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  EndofMysteries

  Here is something about the great crowd in Revelation that very few seem to have ever realized. Rev 3:10 shows that those who 'get it' or did what was right, who have proven their faith may be spared from the great tribulation. So if they are not there, and if the great tribulation is a test for the whole Earth, then Rev 7:14 reveals that the great crowd are those who DURING the great tribulation then passed the test and/or then washed their robes, it was during the great tribulation they became approved, and those are the ones who come out of it.

  The WT teaches that the minute the GT starts, it's TOO LATE! Those 2 scriptures prove otherwise!
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  Recovery

  In response to jeremiah 18:5-10 "You keep hammering on the "setting" of Revelation 7, which setting are you referring to, the fulfillment or where John is? Either way its a vision and admittedly John never leaves earth, correct? Any attempt to make definitive and conclusive statements otherwise is a leap based solely on personal opinion, preference, and agenda, as no one can confirm that these events ever happened [the visions to John or the fulfillments of the prophecies]

  John sets the settings in all his visions. We know John never leaves the earth. He is given Revelation in signs/dreams/visions. That is not the setting I am referring to. A setting is where something is taking place. The setting within the visions are described in clear and obvious detail to all who are reading (and that is how Revelation was able to be separated into chapters since it was not originally written that way). Let me show you how John shows us the settings throughout his writings:

  Revelation 8:1 "And when he opened the seventh seal, a silence occurred in heaven for about a half hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels that stand before God, and seven trumpets were given them."

  Revelation 11:1 "11 And a reed like a rod was given me as he said: “Get up and measure the temple [sanctuary] of God and the altar and those worshiping in it."

  Revelation 12:1 "And a great sign was seen in heaven, a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon was beneath her feet, and on her head was a crown of twelve stars.."

  Revelation 15:1 "And I saw in heaven another sign, great and wonderful, seven angels with seven plagues.."

  Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more.."

  So you see this is not about my opinion/my personal interpretation/the WT's interpretation. That is completely irrelevant to the context that John consistently sets forth in pretty much every one of his visions. It is no different for Revelation 7. What is the setting of Revelation 7? You decide.

  Revelation 7:1-3 "7 After this I saw four angels standing upon the four corners of the earth, holding tight the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow upon the earth or upon the sea or upon any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrising, having a seal of [the] living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.”
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  rather be in hades

  i feel sad and left out.

  i don't get a response? covington's testimony was so interesting!
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  Leolaia

  To respond to a point page on p. 4 of this thread....

  Chapter 7 has three parts, a vision in v. 1-3, an audition in v. 4-8, and a vision in v. 9-17. The first vision concerns a sealing that takes place on earth, the audition in v. 4-8 does not localize the source of the voice but it is the voice of God then it is emanating from heaven. The third vision, clearly set off from the preceding audition by meta tauta "after these things", describes an assemblage in heaven, as the contextual motifs show ("before the throne", "in the temple", "white robes", their martyred status, etc.); these motifs all better support a reading that locates the crowd in heaven than on earth. The objection that the author should have explicitly shifted the scene at the start of v. 9 (e.g. "After this I looked, and behold in heaven there was a great multitude in front of me"), but the scene does shift in that verse with the statement that the crowd are "before the throne" and v. 15 repeats this and adds "in the temple", by which the reader should understand that the vision is a heavenly one. There is a similar shift in ch. 6: the seals are opened in heaven, the results of each unsealing have results on the earth in v. 2-8 (e.g. " given power to take peace from the earth and to make people kill each other" in v. 4, "given power over a fourth of the earth" in v. 8, etc.), and the next vision report shifts the scene to the heavenly temple: " I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain" (v. 6). That shifts the scene to heaven, just as we have in the next chapter: " a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, was standing before the throne and before the Lamb". Then the next vision report in v. 12 shifts to describe events happening both in heaven and earth. There are multiple settings in ch. 6, just as there are multiple settings in ch. 7. The first verses of ch. 7 clearly concern the earth, the latter verses in the chapter concern heaven. "After these things I looked and behold" in v. 9 marks pretty clearly the start of a new vision that could certainly involve a new scene. The vision in v. 1-3, in fact, is set apart from the preceding as a new vision with "after this I saw". In ch. 15, " after this I looked, and I saw" marks a shift from the throng at the fiery sea of glass to the interior of the temple (v. 5). And at the start of ch. 18 "after this I saw" (v. 1) marks the shift from the vision of the harlot of Babylon (ch. 17) to the lament of the fall of Babylon (ch. 18); two distinct but related visions.
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  jeremiah18:5-10

  So you see this is not about my opinion/my personal interpretation/the WT's interpretation. That is completely irrelevant to the context that John consistently sets forth in pretty much every one of his visions. It is no different for Revelation 7. What is the setting of Revelation 7? You decide.

  Exactly the point. Each has a right to interpret the scriptures for themselves with the knowledge that they will be judged accordingly ( if you believe in God and the Bible). For you, WTS or JW Facts or anyone else to presume they know all or better than anyone else is foolish. The difference is JW Facts is trying to open the door to critical thinking especially for people that have been ensnared and mislead and indoctrinated into WTS. The WTS doesn't allow such critical thinking or open debate. Any kind of self-interpretation is considered to be competitition and thus apostacy. You are coming across as if you have the answers and as a proponent of the WTS and totally discount others conclusions and interpretations.

  Whether I'm right or wrong is of no relevance to you or anyone else. I'm not a follower of men anymore. Perhaps you should consider the same course.
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  EndofMysteries

  Just going on new testament scriptures, here are a few possibilities for the great crowd and the anointed.

  1. the new testament teaches that Jews would be again taken by God, that they are temporarily dulled and blinded. The 144,00 are said to JUDGE the 12 tribes of Israel. there are scriptures that show some have NO judgement. They also say if a person judges, they themself will get judgement and if you try to live by law, you will be judged by law. So one possibility is the 144,000 are taken from Israel to judge Jews, who haven't taken the free gift and maybe all people on earth who didn't qualify for not being judged. If the 144,000 are only israelites for israelites, the great crowd could then be those from the nations for those from the nations, if both are heavenly. In a sense both groups are in heaven with higher positions.

  2. the anointed / 144,000 are blood line inheritors and the great crowd are the adopted sons.

  3. the WT view

  There are more possibilites but I'm done, I didn't even touch upon the possibilities when you take into account the OT.
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  Recovery

  the-illuminator 81: Recovery, it's dangerous to think for yourself, and to admit that the WTS can make mistakes. Soon you will find yourself disfellowshipped or inactive. It happened to me!

  Thanks for the tip.

  sebastious: But you just didn't understand the argument about how you don't understand arguments...

  Sorry I don't understand the argument about how I don't understand the argument about how I don't understand arguments.

  XBEHERE: Do the elders in your congregation know that you read and post on this site?

  No they do not, but if they asked me I would tell them.

  watson: I was wrong. I think Recovery is a very clever and shrewd apostate. Look at how he is bringing out the rational thought process that is necessary to come out of the JW culture. My hat's off to you Recovery!!

  LOL thanks watson. One day I'm djeggnog, one day I'm renee, now I'm an apostate JW. "I am...whatever you say I am." - Eminem

  jgnat: As for whales to animal, Recovery shows a fundamental misunderstanding how structure speaks to progression. Whales don't have gills. Why?

  I was joking. I am very well versed/in tune with evolutionary theories and 'how structure speaks to progression'. Evolution has been shoved down my throughout ever since 10th grade Biology well on into my university career.

  Emery said: Trying to be as objective as possible, I believe Recovery has a good scriptural argument. When reading these 7 pages I witnessed a lot of people attacking everything but the argument at hand. I think Leo did a great job of utilizing scripture and only scripture to counter Recovery's position, along with a few others.

  I agree with everything posted here. Finally some honesty. And I agree Leo is very good at utilizing scripture in her arguments.

  rather be in hades: no one can look at the history of the watchtower society, read the older quotes, see how bat shit nutty they were and are, learn about science and still come out a jw after all is said and done.

  Well I'm still a Jw. Still pioneering. Still reading the older nutty quotes and still fully functional. I probably know more about science (specifically, evolution) than most people here and most JW's in general, but I'm still here. Welp, there goes your theory.

  Jonathan dough merely repeated what is already said on Jwfacts and in short, some of what Leolaia brought out. Already addressed, see my previous post.

  tootired2care: This guy is a jerk, and a bully. We should flood his blog with comments and counter arguments. Wouldn't want to allow his copy/paste wt$ dogma to go unchecked on his site. Actually that is not my website. I do not use that blog. My current website is: www.donotgivewaytodoubt.wordpress.com for anyone interested. I will be updating it momentarily.

  Everything else was mere cut and paste from exJW websites that have already been discussed in the last 7 pages.
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  EndofMysteries

  Recovery - your reply to leolaia with they WILL guide them to waters, etc, so that they must be on Earth. If that case is really taken, then in Zechariah 14:8 (the whole chapter really), and Ez 47:6-9 show those as literal waters, and have Jehovah physically on Earth ruling as king, but since Jesus is supposed to be the King, does that mean Jesus is Jehovah? Would that mean Jesus is God or that Jehovah is himself a son? But I know JW's apply the Jerusalem in Rev as spiritual, and in Ez and Zech it's quite physical and literal.
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  Recovery

  Leolaia I would like for you to address post 167 when you are able.
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  Christ Alone

  Recovery, are you counting time while you are on this site? Just a question I was wondering about...