by SnowQueen 268 Replies latest watchtower scandals
Prog -> MP:
mP, the vulcan hand sign is from the Kabbalah, not the Bible. Ole Spocky even admitted that.
mP -> Prog:
Doesnt change its praising Jehovah meaning, whch doesnt not make sense given what you originally said.
BTW:
When are you going to answer my qusetion about Josephus and Jesus being fine with astrology in the temple in Jerusalem ? Answer it there.
Josephus nor Jesus endorsed astrology. You assume they did through your inappropriate associations between Christanity and every imaginable religion in the world. This thread is about the Watchtower and the Illuminati, not your regurgitated theories from Helena Blavatsky.
And so what if it praises Jehovah, there is evidence that the tetragrammaton was a later insertion into the Bible by Kabbalists.
As you might remember, I work in British Parliament, so one day these folk turn up http://www.demos.co.uk/about They are carrying their props which include a cardboard pedestal surround with a big eye, (see the way they portray their brand name), they where young folk so purely as a joke I said, "your not one of these Illuminati companys are you, what with your eye symbol", they sort of smiled a bit and said no. So when I got home I looked them up, turns out they are one of Britians big think tanks, you will sometimes see pictures of our Prime Minister talking on a Demos pedestal, they are heavily into globalism, aka New World Order. Last time they where in the news they where doing some programme in schools were they where teaching kids not to belive in all this conspiracy nonsense which I found a bit ironic.
I've been reading your posts with interest, thank you to everyone who's responded.
In particular, thank you Iamwhoiam for the Michael Shermer talks, I liked those a lot, and also fakesmile for your very sensible comment which echos my own thoughts:
"I agree that many conspiricist will spout anything to get a few followers.$$$. but to say that it is perposrerous that rich ppl would get together to expand their wealth and power at others expense is pretty oblivious."
To imagine that the people at the top of the tree of the world's elite, who move in the relatively small circles of the very wealthiest families and corporations, don't get together and work out how to maintain and increase their wealth, power and influence seems to me to be naive, and if it's true (as it appears to be) that absolute power corrupts absolutely, then it also seems likely that the agenda for those meetings is not focused on alleviating poverty, ending war, and the general good of mankind.
As Mr Shermer rightly points out, we have to be careful that were not so sceptical that we miss the patterns, as a type II error (not seeing patterns when patterns are there) can be fatal! For me there is a little too much smoke for there to be no fire, although I'm sure many conspiricists have wildly exaggerated the current state of affairs.
It does seem obvious to me that CT Russell was indeed a freemason (he seems a bit schizophrenic when it comes to admitting it, but he does mention it in some of his publications, even though he denies it at other times) and that the early WTS publications are riddled with masonic symbolism.
I mean, could it really be a coincidence that the bible is called the 'New World' Translation?
I found a few videos online which discuss the WTS connections with the occult which some of you may find of interest:
The Watchtower Society Origins Are Right Under Your Nose:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJCijM2cQUk (9mins 22sec)
The Watchtower Society & Occult Connections:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRvGX9XqF10&feature=related (48min 33sec)
After watching these, it seems that CT was very open and public about his involvement in the occult, including all sorts of weird and wonderful things in his publications (those same publications on which the WTS was founded), things that today's GB would call demonic!
So, having seen a fair few videos like these, I've been trying to work out what could be the reason why JWs are so vehemently warned away from the occult (at least they were warned between 1960s-1990s, not sure of the situation today) and these seem to me to be the main candidates;
1. Rutherford and subsequent presidents denounced former presidents' occult-related 'old light' in order to discredit them and diminish their power in the eyes of his followers so as to transfer that power to themselves, until all beliefs in the occult were weeded out.
2. Like warning people away from the internet, the society wants to control the information it's members are exposed to and they don't want to risk people finding out the truth regarding the origins of the organisation.
3. The occult is still woven into the fabric of the WTS and those at the highest level are practicing Satanists, using false religion to control the people but leaving signs and clues in the publications for other secret society members (the most recently seen in the Revelation book)
If this last scenario were the case, the superstition created around spiritism would serve as a facade, masking the organisations current occult connections, thereby maintaining the secrecy required to further their agenda and reinforcing the feeling of being all-powerful over their followers.
I'm not saying any of the above reasons are true, it is possible that the GB genuinely believe that instilling a phobia of Satan and the demons way out of proportion to what the bible teaches is important for the spiritual health of the congregation, but perhaps the WTS doth protest too much!
Continuing on this theme, for those of you that haven't already heard of it or seen it, there is a very well-known and widely publicised documentary about the hidden agenda of worldwide secret societies for global domination and what to do about it, called Thrive:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEV5AFFcZ-s (2hrs 12mins)
Although some aspects of the movie are controversial, it has spawned a global movement of non-violent resistance to the alleged illuminati plan. See: http://www.thrivemovement.com/
I'd be interested to here your thoughts on any of these videos, especially those of you who have been following this thread closely.
SQ
3. The occult is still woven into the fabric of the WTS and those at the highest level are practicing Satanists, using false religion to control the people but leaving signs and clues in the publications for other secret society members (the most recently seen in the Revelation book)
This one stands out to me. There are practicing Satanists/witches in the mainline churches as well, particularly in the Evangelical and Charismatic movements.
There is nothing wrong with the occult. Occult means hidden. So what. Gnostic means knowledge, again so what. These terms have bad vibes because of WTS labels. There is nothing sinister in them.
Yeah, but did you ever ask yourself why it is hidden, mP?
I agree that the word and what it signifies are not sinister in themselves, although I don't agree that the words only have bad vibes because of WTS labels - a lot of people have a fear of the unknown, the supernatural/paranormal, and so called 'evil' forces assoiated with magic and the dark arts.
The word occult derives comes from the Latin word occultus (clandestine, hidden, secret), referring to "knowledge of the hidden", however 'hidden from view' is just one meaning of the word. The word has many uses, popularly meaning "knowledge of the paranormal" (as opposed to "knowledge of the measurable" i.e. science), "knowledge meant only for certain people" or "knowledge that must be kept hidden", but for most practicing occultists it is simply the study of a deeper spiritual reality that extends beyond pure reason and the physical sciences. [Wikipedia]
The dictionary definition is as follows:
oc·cult adjective
1. of or pertaining to magic, astrology, or any system claiming use or knowledge of secret or supernatural powers or agencies.
2. beyond the range of ordinary knowledge or understanding; mysterious.
3. secret; disclosed or communicated only to the initiated.
4. hidden from view.
5. (in early science)
a. not apparent on mere inspection but discoverable by experimentation.
b. of a nature not understood, as physical qualities.
c. dealing with such qualities; experimental: occult science.
Wikipedia goes on to say that the term occult is also used as a label given to a number of "magical organisations" or orders, the teachings and practices taught by them, and to a large body of current and historical literature and spiritual philosophy related to this subject.
Occultism is the term used to describe the study of occult practices including (but not limited to) magic, alchemy, extra-sensory perception, astrology, spiritualism, anddivination. Interpretation of occultism and its concepts can be found in the belief structures of religions such as Gnosticism, Hermeticism, Theosophy, Wicca, Thelema,Satanism, and Neopaganism. A broad definition is offered by Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke:
OCCULTISM has its basis in a religious way of thinking, the roots of which stretch back into antiquity and which may be described as the Western esoteric tradition. Its principal ingredients have been identified as Gnosticism, the Hermetic treatises on alchemy and magic, Neo-Platonism, and the Kabbalah, all originating in the eastern Mediterranean area during the first few centuries AD.
Now, you could say that by the dictionary definition the WTS is an occult organisation since it claims to use ‘supernatural powers or agencies’ in producing it’s books and magazines, that such communication with the divine means the organisation does indeed claim to go ‘beyond the range of ordinary knowledge or understanding’, and that this secret knowledge ‘disclosed or communicated only to the initiated’ at the top level of the organisation.
However, even if the WTS were to use words according to their dictionary definition (rather than ‘loading’ such terms to promote fear), they would probably say that, given other common associations with the word occult they would not want to be referred to as an occult organisation. This is because they are fervent in condemning the practice of any kind of magic, astrology, spiritism and divination as being of the devil and something true Christians should detest as Jehovah apparently does.
This is a common stance taken by Christian authorities who ‘have generally regarded occultism as heretical, from early Christian times, in the form of gnosticism, to late Renaissance times, in the form of various occult philosophies. Mainstream institutional Christianity has always resisted occult influences, which are:
NB: Outside of the mainstream there are heterodox branches of Esoteric Christianity that practice divination, blessings, or appealing to angels for certain intervention, which they view as perfectly righteous, often supportable by gospel (for instance, claiming that the old commandment against divination was superseded by Christ's birth, and noting that the Magi used astrology to locate Bethlehem). Rosicrucianism, one of the most celebrated of Christianity's mystical offshoots, has lent aspects of its philosophy to most Christian-based occultism since the 17th century. [Wikipedia]
It’s not so much that occultism actually is evil, or that there would be anything wrong with mysticism in the WTS. The problem arises if/when an organisation is being deceptive about it’s true nature. Freemasons and Satanists are at least straight with their members who know what they’re getting into from the outset. It begs the question why?, why would these practices need to be hidden?
As Susan Landa points out: Cults often purposely fail to inform recruits of the exact nature of their groups, concealing their true identity through the use of front names, until the recruits are fully indoctrinated. By the time the recruit does realize what group he has actually joined, the new member has lost his "ability to think freely and hence cannot rationally decide whether or not he wants to join. [A] convert never has full capacity and knowledge simultaneously." (http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_articles/landa_susan_childrenandcults.htm)
We already know the WTS fulfils the criteria of a destructive cult since it uses deceptive recruitment practices, inasmuch as they are not upfront about restrictions on members such as not celebrating birthdays, or their disfellowshipping and shunning policies, let alone the fact that their true agenda - recruiting new members and fund-raising – is not disclosed to members or recruits. However occult practices at the top of the organisation would be deceit on an even larger scale and would suggest an even more sinister agenda.
They may be nothing inherently wrong with occultism, but if the WTS is an occult or ‘secret’ society then the religion is a sham and they are deceiving every member of the organisation, hypocritically denouncing occultism as a sin worthy of eternal damnation in public whilst practicing it behind closed doors.
The people who devote their entire life to serving this organisation deserve to know the truth about it. Any honourable and ethical organisation needs to be open about it's philosophy, aims and practices so that it's members are able to make a fully informed decision as to whether or not they choose to adhere to and support it. It would be outragous for the WTS to take their holier-than-thou elitist stance whilst simultaneously lying to the world. But perhaps that was the plan all along....
Prog:
Yeah, but did you ever ask yourself why it is hidden, mP?
mP:
Some people like to keep secrets, eveyrbody does. I dont give out my PIN, do you ?
Some people wear clothes as well, thats how it goes.
Theres also a time to tell kids about the facts of life, money death and taxes and so on. They dont need to know that when they are in preschool.
BTW:
When are you going to do the honourable thing and answer the q about Josephus, instead of ignoring the facts because you dont like them.
True Christianity frees people and some have a problem with that.
The WT is damaging to people and societies on many different levels. If they practice occultism that would be the ultimate insult to their followers that can not even have a Sparlock.
