Dan Savage talks about the bible and Christian students flee (page 27)

botchtowersociety

BizzyBee and the atheist:

Martin Sheen is a devout Catholic, not an atheist. He just made a movie about the St. James pilgrimage.

botchtowersociety

Great movie, by the way, especially for someone like me (I share Sheen's Galician ancestry).

http://theway-themovie.com

Jonathan,, I hear you. Having read his column for a very long time, as well as his books, I can say that these comments were NOT out of his frame of reference. He has always been irreverant, and has a "fuck-you!" attitude that, to be honest, I admire.

tal

JonathanH

While I usually agree with you NewChapter, I don't think this is an instance of those christian kids being close minded and in the wrong. I am perfectly capable of listening to views that contradict and even condemn atheism, but that doesn't mean that I am required to do so under every circumstance. It's not that savage's views are wrong or shouldn't be said, or that he was being a bully, it's that that speech to that audience was in poor taste given that his audience came to support him.

Let's use the example I used above about maybe a conference to bolster support for science education and keeping religion out of the class room. If I went to a talk that was supposed to be about how important it is that good science is used in the classroom and that kids get a good math and science education, and the speaker is a known evengelical pastor, but one that supports the teaching of evolution and doesn't think that creation accounts or ID should be taught in any self respecting class room. Let's say I go to this talk that is supposed to be supporting this idea of science education, and instead he spends his talk complaining about how the New Athiest movement has been terrible for science, and people like Richard Dawkins and Jerry Coyne have done far more damage to science than good, and athiesm brought about Hitler and Mao you know! Would I be obliged to sit and listen to that talk just to show that I am capable of doing so? I would probably shake my head, think "this is neither the time nor the place" and then leave. I think those kids walking out was the most peaceful and mature way to send the message that "hey, we know you're an athiest, but this is about gay rights, ok? This is not the time or place." Some of those kids might be close minded and left because they can't handle criticism, but it's also likely that many of them engage in civil discussion and debates with atheists and muslims and bahai about religion and god and spirituality and are more than capable of listening to criticism, but felt cheated by the bait and switch. Remember, they were there to support LGBT rights.

It's easy to condemn others when you support the message being delivered, but objectively this was just a bad move. I think Dan Savage is great, and I support LGBT, but I can't condone this as being useful to the movement or condemn those teenagers for leaving.

Terry

HARLAN ELLISON
The Deathbird

This story,
only ten thousand words, comprises not only the beginning and the end of this
world, but also, perhaps even more relevant, the middle.

The end is written in
the beginning, and the middle is as inescapable as growing old. A tour de force
that scans billions of years, and manages to focus on minute details with
excruciating exactness, this is "The Deathbird."

The Text online:

http://cyberrvr.weebly.com/uploads/5/9/7/8/5978545/deathbird_by_harlan_ellison.pdf

Billy the Ex-Bethelite

it was clear that Savage called the bible "bullshit" more than once - you could plainly see it by reading his lips.

Here's the actual text of that section of his speech:

“We can learn to ignore the bullshit in the Bible about gay people. The same way, the same way we have learned to ignore the bullshit in the Bible about shellfish, about slavery, about dinner, about farming, about menstruation, about virginity, about masturbation. We ignore bullshit in the Bible about all sorts of things.”

Technically, he didn't outright call the Bible 'bullsh!t', he said, "we... ignore the bullsh!t in the Bible about..." To me there is a difference.

talesin

Billy, Dan Savage has been outspoken about his views for many years. It is nothing new,,, it is just a 'new' post on this forum. Around these parts, he is a highly respected sex educator and gay activist.

Remember that you are defending him on a forum of people who grew up HOMOPHOBIC, and you are also arguing (they don't debate) with right-wing thinkers who will believe what they want, and disregard the facts.

xo

tal

james_woods

Technically, he didn't outright call the Bible 'bullsh!t', he said, "we... ignore the bullsh!t in the Bible about..." To me there is a difference.

Splitting hairs, don't you think?

For example - if you walked up to me at a car show and said the the Engine, the Transmission, the Brakes, and several other components of my Ferrari were bullshit I would take offense to that, even if logically you did not name every single component part by part.

Anyway, it was the tone of the comment - and the use of "bullshit" that set off the contraversy.

Sadly he has a point: Many things in the bible are no longer taken for literal value. If he had found a way to say it politely, he might have been able to make that point and even sway a few opinions.

Dan Savage talks about the bible and Christian students flee

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