Dan Savage talks about the bible and Christian students flee

by Terry 319 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  james_woods

  Sheesh, I just apologized to BTS and James for hurting their feelings and not knowing when to "just give this crap a rest". I'm a pansy ass compared to fighters like ZJ. I initially got to know some bullying and domestic abuse victims a year ago and started getting involved with such issues (and rather superficially, I must admit). It's been here at university that I've started to get to know a few from the LGBT community. It's all been very enlightening.

  Actually, in my case it did not hurt my feelings...it pissed me off. I am also very much against gay bashing and of course concerned about possible gay kid suicide. I strongly suspected that it was said in the heat of the moment.

  But here is the deal: It is like OWS in a way- it is one thing to protest your cause peacefully, quite another to blow up a bridge.

  If I were trying to talk to a sliding but still somewhat believing JW to help them out of the borg, I would certainly NOT say the bible is bullshit. Even if I thought some of it was.
• 

  talesin

  thinkin': Sheesh, I just apologized to BTS and James for hurting their feelings and not knowing when to "just give this crap a rest". I'm a pansy ass compared to fighters like ZJ.

  Don't feel bad, Billy. As one poster remarked, it's more about some people enjoying the argument - they have no real stake in the issue.

  Kinda ironic that you said you felt like a 'pansy ass', huh? It's such a non-aggressive insult,,, you see? That's what this thread is made of.

  And by the way, BTS,,, I did NOT say anything mean. You lied. I stated the truth, and called you on it -- that is not mean, it is merely REALITY. I left high school when I was 14, and do not engage in silly name-calling.

  You cannot bait me. It's boring. Please go play with someone else who enjoys the 'thrust and parry'; I quickly lose interest in your verbal jousting.

  xo

  tal
• 

  botchtowersociety

  You belittled me by saying I lived in a fantasy world. That comment was unsolicited, since I did not previously demean you in any way. Yet you continued personal attacks, calling my contribution to the thread "babble" and "no-speak." You don't seem to be able to accept that a person might disagree with you.

  You seem to think that putting a happy face or wishing peace and love at the end of a message changes anything when you insult someone.

  You also called me a liar when I said Savage engaged in inappropriate language. I try to be honest in all things, and place a high value on honesty, so I consider being called a liar a big deal.

  I mentioned that he did engage in such language in the video, and recommended you watch it, but you still called me a liar when the evidence was clear and easy to see. At that point, I think you were just repeating the personal insult to be insulting, since it was obviously a false accusation.

  The video clearly shows that he did what I said he did, and the NSPA has issued an apology for the profanity-laced rant, which is on this page.

  If there is a liar here, it isn't me.

  You cannot bait me.

  Since when is stating the facts baiting? If anyone engaged in baiting in our exchange, it is you. Sadly, I took your bait. I should simply have ignored you.
• 

  talesin

  hahaha,,, you are so cute, BTS!

  here's a vid for you, and many xos!

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85yYAf4EMT0

  "what goes on in your head I'm just curious!"

  tal
• 

  JonathanH

  This is an instance where I agree with botch (to an extent). I am a staunch atheist, and pro-gay obviously. Savage's message is correct, the hypocrisy and nonsensical nature of the bible should be called out. The justification for considering homosexuality as being as deviant as theft or dishonesty is nonsensical seeing as how the source of this accusation doesn't have any problem with owning other human beings. But ridiculing an audience of your supporters that came out to support you is never the way to get your message across. I don't think he was being a bully, as ideas are always fair game and christianity is an idea. But simply from a pragmatic standpoint specifically making an attempt to alienate your supporters is probably not the best way to bolster your cause.

  He has to decide what his cause is and what it is he was trying to get support for in that instance. Was he trying to bring reason and rationality to a religious group, or was he trying to bring awareness to gay prejudice? If I was advocating for science literacy in schools and some of my base consisted of christian supporters that thought that evolution did indeed belong in science class, and that creationism shouldn't be taught in science class; to get my supporters together for a rally and then spend my speech telling them how dumb the bible is would be a ridiculous move. This was just poor strategy on Savages part. If you limit your support base to only those that agree with you on every possible issue, you're just shooting yourself in the foot. You need to have a base of people that will move your cause forward even if you disagree with portions of your base on lots of other issues.
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  talesin

  Anyone who has read Dan Savage even a little bit, would get it. I appreciate your comments, Jonathan, and I have to say that Savage is NOT a politician; he is a GAY RIGHTS ADVOCATE and SEX COLUMNIST. He really DOESN'T CARE what you think about him, because he is a-political, and his livelihood doesn't depend on the political 'cause of the moment' ,,, he has steadfastly stood for LGBT rights, and openness about sexuality,,, long before any of us were on this discussion board.

  It would be refreshing if everyone did their research here,, unfortunately, I realize that is never gonna happen.

  t
• 

  james_woods

  Talesin, the thread is about what he said in front of this group - not about Savage's past history.

  What he said was in bad taste, his his past history does not excuse it.
• 

  JonathanH

  I know who Dan Savage is, I've read his column a number of times, I've listened to various interviews with him, I am not a stranger to him or his views. Being a-political does not relinquish one's responsibility to his own cause. He doesn't have to care what I think about him, he can be as radical as he wants, but when he antagonizes his own advocates and supporters he does nothing to help the LGBT movement. This speech did not convince any of those people that walked out that atheism is the way, all it did was alienate christian gay rights advocates and give ammunition to his enemies. Doing something radical does not mean doing something stupid. And I am perfectly capable of being supportive of gay rights and Dan Savage while critisizing this particular mis-step. I don't have to cheer on every single thing he does in order to consider his cause important.
• 

  botchtowersociety

  I wouldn't describe him as apolitical though. Wikipedia lists him as a libertarian.
• 

  NewChapter

  The Nationalist Scholastic Press Association apologizes and makes the exact same points I and others on this thread did about Savage's behavior.

  They really had no choice. But what they should be concerned about is that they have students nearly ready for college, that are interested in journalism who are emotionally unable to sit and listen to their deeply held beliefs (and I suppose that would be slavery, since that's the part they walked out on) criticized from someone who they KNEW disagreed with him. They should take this moment to ask these delicates whether journalism is really for them. It's not.

  At the moment, I am critiquing a complicated letter, written by a Libertarian and fiscal conservative, offering a proposal. I disagree all the time, however I have put myself out there as someone that can be depended on to help a writer express themselves clearly. Actually, Botch would be better for this particular job, as he has a real talent for making the complicated simple and actually agrees with the letter, but it is what it is. Now, do I tell this writer that he is hurting my feelings by attacking my ideas? WAH! Nope. I just have to suck it up because it is what I do. I'm giving it my best. THAT's the lesson these kids need to learn.

  But I'm glad they walked out. It was the most powerful message that could have been sent to the young people as to what will happen if we let the conservative right continue to gain power.

  NC