looky looky - A 'real' J-dub forum! (are they becoming normal???)

by Reality79 164 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Krettnawe

  I love how pointing out that claims to be able to predict the future in God's name by using their own publications is now their standard for "extremism". What a laughable bunch of wingnuts.

  Actually I said extremists are those who spend hours and hours of time combing through old WT articles looking to cherry-pick a quote out, patch them together with other quotes written across decades, and then use that to make some sort of statement about the WT. The motivation behind such obsession is revenge, and is hardly altruistic despite what you may claim.

  Fact is, so far noone has provided a quote from anything, so your claims of "pointing out" are nothing more than self-fellatioistic illusions of granduer (a quality you share with JW's)

  And as if you have look back 100 years. Just look back to the 80's when they said before the century was over that God would conclude this system of things.

  Okay, since we are going to play the game, then I challenge you to produce an article that claims this. (hint you wont, because it is only in one book, that is out of print) I am curious if you reject every other denomination for being over-zealous and dislocated from the realities of Acts 1:6? If so, then I can link up a page that goes through each major denomination and lists people making predictions while claiming they are being "directed" by the Spirit of GOD. Your standards are too high for any group to meet. If that is your intent then you have succeeded.

  Since wasblind isn't claiming to be speaking on God's behalf and leading 7 million people

  I never said WASBLIND was doing that. I said many ex-JW's claim to have special insight because they are BORN AGAIN. If your going to comment at least keep up with the discussion.

  , it hardly rises to the same standard.

  REPLY

  You realize your opinion isnt fact right? You strike me as someone who hasnt quite differentiated between the two (another characteristic you share with JW's)

  (Plus, you can always look at all of was' posts on the forum and start doing the same thing yourself, but that would take intellectual work, something you apologists abhor).

  I don't have the revenge, bitterness, or anger in me to do such a thing. But an army of ex-JW's do dont they? Oh wait, at this point, most of these bitter, angry, ex-JW's are like you. Just copying and pasting from the websites of people who did the work for you and most of the other lazy Plagarists like yourself.

  If you call borrowing thoughts, quotes, and other ideas fromothers who have done the actual work "intellectual" then so be it. I call it lazy, and following men (another quality you share with JW's)

  BTW, you slapped me with a label so that you can avoid any real insight, or discussion about certain topics (Apologist). That, my angry friend, is the 4th thing you have in common with JW's.

  With all the bitterness you spew towards JW, or anyone not agreeing with your viewpoint, you would think you would have much less in common with the group you live to hate.

  Finding a new target, and re-shuffling your DOGMA is only "spiritual enlightment" in the cramped confines of ex-JW world.

  To others outside that peanut gallery, you just look like the hypocrite you really are.
• 

  Krettnawe

  TEC I'm quite certain there are old writings in old books that says you have to follow them and that have been scanned on this forum in different places, that they speak as God's channel, and no one else does... REPLY This claim they make is no different than the claim most Christians make. Why are JW's held to a different standard? Because they have something most individual Christians dont have. An infrastructure to enforce thier dogma. BORN AGAINS claim to have a special knowledge, and claim GOD works through them. How is that different (other than what I already posted) than what the WTS claims? TEC as well as a new article stating the same. I think that is very clear, in writing and in teaching. But regardless, as Wasblind said... you only have to claim it once. REPLY Yet when a BORn AGAIN claims they have special insight they arent held to the same standard the JW's are held to? Is that intellectually honest? TEC Also, please dont be under the misconception that JW's are alone in regards to pushing thier dogma through threats of eternal destruction. REPLY YAY! Someone isnt so blinded by thier own hatred for Group _____________ to see outside of the confines of thier own experiences! TEC That is a central tenent to Christian faith. REPLY Captured pretty well in John 3:36. John 14:6, and 1 John 5:11-13...But only the JW's are castigated for making these claims. Why is that? TEC Oh, I'm not under that misconception at all... though I would say it is central to some denominations and not others. It isn't JW's vs. the rest of Christianity, as they like to claim. REPLY Us against them is a great rallying tool and a wonderful motivator. It has been used by many throughout history and will continue to be used. TEC JW's are just another sect of Christianity, albeit an extremely high controlling sect - which is what gives them their feeling of a cult. REPLY AGREED TEC There are rules for absolutely everything, many not even biblical, and if those rules are not followed, then df'ing and utter loss of family can and often does occur. Why? Because they are not following God's organization, and are "therefore", not following God. REPLY Unity at all costs streamlines things and helps the WTS do its business. What is its business? Recruiting other JW's...You get someone like me in the room who wants to argue over biblical interpretation then we would never get anything actually accomplished. As far as DFING goes, I dont agree with it, but I find it disingenious for people to claim this came as a suprise when they decided to leave JW's. You answered almost 100 questions over three meetings with an elder, and you didnt know this would happen? You signed up for this group, and you agreed to go by the rules of this group. If you dont want to follow the rules, then you dont want want to be part of the group.Harsh, but a reality.... TEC But lets talk for a moment about df'ing. As far as I know, only cults cut their members out of their lives completely. JW's; Scientologists; Mormons (I think); Westboro Baptists; etc. So for many it isn't about Armageddon or hellfire... but rather about losing their families to an organization that claims to speak for God. REPLY I have seen many people upset and shunning one another over disagreements about religion, politics, marriages, friends, money etc....Generally, when you have a different set of beliefs than a group has, you dont have much in common with them anymore, nor do they have much in common with you. If I dont have much in common with you, and I have a belief that is central to my identity that you dont agree with, I dont have much interest in you. It is a human thing, not just a JW thing. TEC Catholics might sometimes ex-communicate from their faith, but not from contact and life (unless an individual chooses to go that route on their own, but it is not asked of them nor mandatory) REPLY The Catholics and the JW base this "shunning" on the Bible. They, of course, put their own unique spin on it, but excommunication is discussed and encouraged in the Bible. BTW, ex-communication is not "mandatory"...Generally people that have been DFED, deserved it. TEC I disagree with them 100%. Adherence to dogma does not save. Christ saves. And what special knowledge does one group of men have over another group of men? REPLY AGREED OUT of time, I will finish responding when I get more time....
• 

  Krettnawe

  Alright I dont know what is going with that post. Hopefully you can make sense out of it.
• 

  wasblind

  " BTW, if you choose to throw in condescencion, you need to realize it will be given back."

  I apologize for soundin' condesendin' to you Krett,

  but in the future if I happen to come off that way

  and you feel the need to give it back, bring it on boo

  I can roll wit it, But I will make an effort not be condesendin' towards

  you again.
• 

  Krettnawe

  NP WASBLIND you strike me as reasonable. I am not a doormat, and I will mirror your treatment of me. I have been on JW forums long enough to know how to give and get....
• 

  wasblind

  1) claims don't make somethin' true

  2) Everyone who make a claim in the name of God is held by the same standards, it don't matter whether they call themselves prophets or not, makin' a claim and sayin' It's from God and It don't come true that is the word God did not speak DUET 18: 20-22

  3)We don't hate the people who are missguided by this religion

  4) let's look at John 14:6 Jesus said no one comes to the Father except through him, Not a group of men in brooklyn, the GB try to make it harder to have access to the father by addin' an extra link that's not required. ( Themselves )

  5) That same rallying tool was used by Jim Jones, all those folks who died had the us against them mentallity

  6) I'm glad you agree they have the feel of a cult

  7) Unity at all cost????? smell like a cult to me

  8) just because people hold different view points is not justification to cause mental or physical harm, even the bible says to love your enemy and we know our enemies have a different view point from the ones we are in agreement with. would you cause some one you are supposed to love harm ??? shunning causes harm

  9) Repeat, ex-communicate from faith, not from contact and life

  10) All through the bible it talks of Jesus christ as the way of salvation the one and only way
• 

  wasblind

  " I am not a doormat, and I will mirror your treatment of me."
• 

  tec

  BORN AGAINS claim to have a special knowledge, and claim GOD works through them. How is that different (other than what I already posted) than what the WTS claims?

  I don't know any born agains...or if I do, they aren't shouting anything out. The WTS claim that listening to them is listening to God. Rejecting them (anything about them) is rejecting God. So while there are some who might make that claim, there aren't too many that make the same 'prophecies' that have proven untrue. If they did, then they would absolutely lose their 'we are God's channel and you have to listen to us' (even when we're proven wrong... shhh!)

  Yet when a BORn AGAIN claims they have special insight they arent held to the same standard the JW's are held to? Is that intellectually honest?

  I think I showed above that I would hold them to the same standard. If you (whoever 'you' might be) claim that God is speaking through you, and then say something is going to happen and it does not... well, then I'm not going to believe God is speaking through you anymore. JW, born-again, Catholic, Mormon, what-have-you.

  Captured pretty well in John 3:36. John 14:6, and 1 John 5:11-13...But only the JW's are castigated for making these claims. Why is that?

  See above I think. The same people castigating the JW's (x-jw's with no new religion or no faith at all anymore), I think you will find castigate everyone else making the same claims too. No bias there. The fact that some denominations fight with one another for whoever has the truth... well, you won't find that on this board very often.

  Us against them is a great rallying tool and a wonderful motivator. It has been used by many throughout history and will continue to be used.

  Doesn't make it right.

  Unity at all costs streamlines things and helps the WTS do its business. What is its business? Recruiting other JW's...You get someone like me in the room who wants to argue over biblical interpretation then we would never get anything actually accomplished. As far as DFING goes, I dont agree with it, but I find it disingenious for people to claim this came as a suprise when they decided to leave JW's. You answered almost 100 questions over three meetings with an elder, and you didnt know this would happen? You signed up for this group, and you agreed to go by the rules of this group. If you dont want to follow the rules, then you dont want want to be part of the group.Harsh, but a reality....

  Businesses don't enforce your 'death' by df'ing. If they fire you from the job, they don't hold your family hostage. (well, maybe if we're talking mafia)

  Your df'ing example has absolutely zero bearing on a child born into the religion, and baptized as a child still. Also, when the group is proven to be false to what they taught you (false claims as explained above, lack of love, hypocrisy), then whose fault is it that you leave? Their end of the deal was not held up.

  I have seen many people upset and shunning one another over disagreements about religion, politics, marriages, friends, money etc....Generally, when you have a different set of beliefs than a group has, you dont have much in common with them anymore, nor do they have much in common with you. If I dont have much in common with you, and I have a belief that is central to my identity that you dont agree with, I dont have much interest in you. It is a human thing, not just a JW thing.

  I have heard this said before. I disagree with it 100%. I could not shun a person and treat them as dead, when they are so obviously hurting over it... just because we have different sets of beliefs. Where is the compassion in that? The not-so-common decency? You don't have to be best friends with someone to be kind to them.

  Generally people that have been DFED, deserved it.

  You need to back that up. Because I think if you take a look around, you will find that in many cases, it was absolutely NOT deserved. And hypocritical at that. Nor is the extent of the ramifications rarely if ever deserved.

  I think you're trying to counter the bias toward JW's. I think, though you do come off as an apologist. But you have to remember where you are. People here have been abused, beaten down, stepped on, hurt, treated unjustly and without mercy... they have lost their families, forced to live a lie if they want to keep their families together. The object of their pain is the WTS.

  Tammy
• 

  EntirelyPossible

  Actually I said extremists are those who spend hours and hours of time combing through old WT articles looking to cherry-pick a quote out, patch them together with other quotes written across decades, and then use that to make some sort of statement about the WT.

  Liar liar pants on fire. You said, exactly "Especially when you have an army of dedicated extremists combing through everything said for the last one hundred years.." Please try to at least realize we can go back and see exactly what you said before you try to say you said something else.

  Okay, since we are going to play the game, then I challenge you to produce an article that claims this. (hint you wont, because it is only in one book, that is out of print)

  No problem. Jan1 edition of the 1989 Watchtower says "The apostle Paul was spearheading the Christian missionary activity. He was also laying a foundation for a work that would be completed in our 20th century." Note that you will need the actual Watchtower to see this as they changed it for the CD version.

  I never said WASBLIND was doing that. I said many ex-JW's claim to have special insight because they are BORN AGAIN. If your going to comment at least keep up with the discussion.

  Liar liar pants on fire. you said exactly "I wonder how many things you have claimed in your life? Too bad we dont have it recorded, published, and then thrown to a group who makes their ministry into a nit-picking party." You should also note that I never claimed that you said wasblind was doing that. You are defending yourself against a claim that was never levied against you. Please note that on the forum we can go back and see your exact words, so trying to claim you said something other than what you did is pointless.

  You realize your opinion isnt fact right? You strike me as someone who hasnt quite differentiated between the two (another characteristic you share with JW's)

  Had I struck you, you would know it. As it stands, the butthurt you are feeling is the WTBS having lied to you over and over and your need to defend it lest you realize your life until now has been a lie.

  And in this case, what I said was 100% accurate and not opinion, unless of course, you can demonstrate that a random comment by a poster that leads no one (AFAIK) rises to the same level of critical confirmation that the leaders of a 7 million+ person organization does. Go for it. I dare you.

  I don't have the revenge, bitterness, or anger in me to do such a thing.

  Like I said, apologists are intellectually lazy. Lazy lazy lazy lazy lazy. Just like the WTBS, you like free labor and for someone else to do the work for you. Too bad, so sad. You fail.
• 

  tec

  How you doing, Krettnawe? Its not always easy responding so in depth to three posters at once :) I hope you're not stressing out about it - I know I did when I first came here. I can withdraw for now if so -no harm-and we can carry on at another time if you like.

  Peace to you (also to Was and EP),

  Tammy