My Apologies to Christians.

by AK - Jeff 119 Replies latest jw experiences

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  isaacaustin

  AK_Jeff, sent you a PM.
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  ProdigalSon

  Well done Jeff... the snake story is fully deserving of all the mocking we can possibly throw at it. It has been the single biggest hindrance to the evolution of man. Metaphor was the writing style of the entire Biblical era, and the Bible is no different. Jews and Christians need only to look at mythology like you did to see how it was lifted straight from other cultures.

  The flood story is a close second in absurdity. Even the Watchtower in their infinite wisdom brags that just about every ancient civilization had their own flood story. Well, each one of them had their own particular mountain that the ark came to rest upon too. Another thing the Tower doesn't tell the dubs is that all the stories were older than the Bible! The Babylonian "Noah" was Utnapishtim, whose ark came to rest on Mount Nisir. The Hindu ark landed on Mount Himalaya, and the Greek Ark on Mount Parnassus. And yet, Mount Ararat in the only place where you will find otherwise reasonable scholarly men looking for a box of wood that was supposed to house BILLIONS of species of animals. Just wondering, where did Noah find polar bears or penguins running around in Mesopotamia?

  ~PS
• 

  mouthy

  wELL I guess Jeff didnt think I needed a response to MY question
• 

  snowbird

  wELL I guess Jeff didnt think I needed a response to MY question

  I'm thinking the same.

  Quite telling, isn't it?

  Syl
• 

  Mary

  If we can just pick and choose what portions we believe, then what would motivate us to 'seek Jesus' then?

  For the same reason that we 'pick and choose' throughout our life. Someone's mate might have alot of less-than-stellar qualities, but how many people overlook their faults because they've got some good qualities too? Your job might have alot of drawbacks and your co-workers might be jerks, but on the plus side, you get a paycheque, benefits and security. Are you going to leave your mate or quit your job because they're not perfect? In otherwords, are you going to throw the baby out with the bathwater?

  I view the bible the same way. Yes there are alot of crappy and horrific stories in there. The worst one is that woman who was gang-raped, died and then her husband (or was it her boyfriend? I can't remember) cut her up the next morning. On the plus side, there's alot of good stories in the bible too. Many of the characters were not that much different than what we are. They struggled, they were competitive, they cried and mourned, they lost family members before their time, they laughed and they lived. From a historical and archaeological point of view, the bible can also give us some insight into ancient life and to help show us where we came from. No, I do not believe that the whole bible is "inspired of God". My long-held belief is that the bible is how man views God, not the other way around. I don't believe Jehovah ordered the Isrealites to murder, rape and plunder the Canaanites---they did that on their own and tried justifying it by claiming that Jehovah directed them to do it. That was the culture and mentality 3500 years ago.

  Who was Jesus? At best, he was the Messiah, come to redeem mankind. At worst, he was a visionary who hated corruption, taught his followers to think outside the box, pissed off the Roman government, was executed and changed the course of mankind. Either way, he was a positive force for the human race and I'm not sure why you suddenly want to run-him-into-the-ground, so to speak. I also find your minimalizing his suffering and death somewhat disturbing as though the '9 hours' was little more than school-yard bullying. It wasn't until I read a modern-day medical assessment of what he was subjected to that I fully realized the horror of what 1st century execution entailed and I sure as hell wouldn't want to live through it. You are absolutely correct in stating that millions of others have suffered longer and worse than what Jesus did, but I still don't see that as any reason to trivialize what happened to him.

  Why not 'seek' any other god or god/man? In our century alone, many fine men have lived. Some have been wise far beyond others. Gandhi comes to mind. Why not revere Gandhi, make him a God? At least in that case, we can truly verify what he said. And if we wish to view him divine, the complete, essentially uncorrupted version of his words can be obtained with relative ease. We could find the 'whole truth' about Gandhi.

  And I'm sure that in 2,000 years (if not sooner) there will be people who will try and claim that Gandhi wasn't anyone special, or that there's little evidence that he even existed and therefore, without ample evidence such as a double-blind controlled study in a lab that can prove his existence, we must conclude that he didn't exist and mock anyone who thinks otherwise.

  But can we find the 'whole truth' about Jesus, when we assert that the Bible is 'inspired' but not necessarily accurate in all it's parts?

  No, probably not. As we all know, there is no record of Jesus' life from the age of 12 to 30. The bible is sketchy about the life of Jesus at best but there was obviously enough info there about him to galvanize his followers into action and spread the word as to who they believed he was. My own thoughts are that much of what he did was passed on orally and only the barest of information that they deemed 'necessary' was written, since paper (or papyrus or whatever else they used to write on) was not in abundant supply the way it is today. Plus, the Average Joe was probably illiterate and couldn't write. Eventually, much of the verbal stories about him were lost to history.

  I think we tend to try and gauge ancient history with our modern day methods of writing, proving and storing information and when we try and apply our present day way of doing things to ancient history, the two simply do not match up. That's not to say that everything in the history of Christianity is a hoax or that Jesus didn't exist---it simply means that we don't have all the facts and information that maybe we'd like to have. Some people cannot accept something without verifiable evidence. Others can take that leap of faith and accept what we know at present. I'm not sure where I fit in right now. Since leaving the Borganization, I do not automatically believe everything I'm told. I need some evidence although I realize that that might not be feasible at all times. However, just because we don't have the physical evidence that we want, doesn't mean that certain events never happened or that someone--in this case Jesus of Nazareth--didn't live 2,000 years ago.

  Jeff, you know I love ya, but I can't agree with everything to said. Does that mean that you were 100% wrong and I should just dismiss everything you said? Of course not. You've made some excellent points and I thank you for that. Life (or even history) is not black and white. We all take the good with the bad in various aspects of our life, including religion or even our beliefs.

  Jes' my two cents worth.
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  snowbird

  I view the bible the same way. Yes there are alot of crappy and horrific stories in there. The worst one is that woman who was gang-raped, died and then her husband (or was it her boyfriend? I can't remember) cut her up the next morning.

  This happened at a time when the people of Israel did what was right in their own eyes. I find it interesting that the man went to his own people instead of foreigners, and lived to regret it. I also find it troubling that the father offered his virgin daughter and the man's concubine in his guest's stead.

  Imo, accounts like these show how deeply flawed we are, and how desperately we need the Savior.

  Judges 19:10-11 But this time the man wasn't willing to spend another night. He got things ready, left, and went as far as Jebus (Jerusalem) with his pair of saddled donkeys, his concubine, and his servant. At Jebus, though, the day was nearly gone. The servant said to his master, "It's late; let's go into this Jebusite city and spend the night."

  12 -13 But his master said, "We're not going into any city of foreigners. We'll go on to Gibeah." He directed his servant, "Keep going. Let's go on ahead. We'll spend the night either at Gibeah or Ramah."

  14 -15 So they kept going. As they pressed on, the sun finally left them in the vicinity of Gibeah, which belongs to Benjamin. They left the road there to spend the night at Gibeah.

  Judges 19:22 They were relaxed and enjoying themselves when the men of the city, a gang of local hell-raisers all, surrounded the house and started pounding on the door. They yelled for the owner of the house, the old man, "Bring out the man who came to your house. We want to have sex with him."

  23 -24 He went out and told them, "No, brothers! Don't be obscene—this man is my guest. Don't commit this outrage. Look, my virgin daughter and his concubine are here. I'll bring them out for you. Abuse them if you must, but don't do anything so senselessly vile to this man."

  25 -26 But the men wouldn't listen to him. Finally, the Levite pushed his concubine out the door to them. They raped her repeatedly all night long. Just before dawn they let her go. The woman came back and fell at the door of the house where her master was sleeping. When the sun rose, there she was.

  27 It was morning. Her master got up and opened the door to continue his journey. There she was, his concubine, crumpled in a heap at the door, her hands on the threshold.

  28 "Get up," he said. "Let's get going." There was no answer.

  29 -30 He lifted her onto his donkey and set out for home. When he got home he took a knife and dismembered his concubine—cut her into twelve pieces. He sent her, piece by piece, throughout the country of Israel. And he ordered the men he sent out, "Say to every man in Israel: 'Has such a thing as this ever happened from the time the Israelites came up from the land of Egypt until now? Think about it! Talk it over. Do something!'" MSG

  Shameful and disgusting, disgusting and shameful.

  Syl
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  Someone's mate might have alot of less-than-stellar qualities, but how many people overlook their faults because they've got some good qualities too? Your job might have alot of drawbacks and your co-workers might be jerks, but on the plus side, you get a paycheque, benefits and security. Are you going to leave your mate or quit your job because they're not perfect? In otherwords, are you going to throw the baby out with the bathwater?

  What if the spouse is all bathwater and no baby? I mean, what if the spouse has been so rundown by the bullying spouse that they feel worthless and deserve their fate? What if they stay with an abusive mate because they are afraid of something worse than abuse happening to them? That's much of religion that I know about. Religion tells it's members that they are nothing, God is everything. They need God because there's nothing better for them. As a matter of fact, if you enjoy life now without God, you will suffer eternally.

  Years back, men went down into the coalmines without protection and eventually died of (layman's terms) blacklung disease. It was better than starving. That job had a lot of drawbacks, but the miners got paid and their family did not starve. Should that job be the same today? Should we have kept sending miners in without protection? Of course not. Things got better. I will grant that today's churches are not the Spanish Inquisition, so things got better. But to finish that analogy, if the workers can find an even better job, they should leave the mine. If churchmembers discover a better way to make peace or feel content, then leave that church behind. If your church or worship group is not forcing lies on you, belittling you, telling you not to seek peace your way, if your church allows freethinking- stay if you wish. More power to you. Otherwise, get an education and come out of the coalmine.
• 

  Ding

  Jeff,

  Your original post in this thread is well-written satire, but please realize that anything can be made to look ludicrous in this fashion.

  Take atheistic evolution, for example:

  "Of course! Why didn't I see it before? All the matter and energy in the entire universe just spontaneously popped into existence out of nothing! Makes perfect sense to me. Happens all the time in my neighborhood.

  Then there was this big bang explosion and all the matter in the universe spontaneously formed organized itself into stars, planets, asteroids, constellations, solar systems, all following an inverse square law of attraction. Makes perfect sense to me. Reminds me of the time a few years ago when the local ball-bearing plant blew up and produced a wide-body Boeing 767. Just like when all those years of rain formed those faces on Mount Rushmore.

  Life? Well of course live evolved spontaneously out of inanimate chemicals just like those rocks in my great-grandfather's garden have turned into chipmunks.

  Then 23-part DNA evolved and changed until amino acids that came from nowhere eventually became Fred Franz and the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society."

  Sorry about that last one. Bad illustration....
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  AK - Jeff

  Yes Prod. Well stated.

  I find it interesting that my effort to sort thru the mess that calls itself Christianity, especially on this board, is almost always categorized as latent bitterness directed at the Watchtower. Honestly, the Watchtower's level of ignorance is no more or less than what Christianity displays in general - and though my first TIC post on this thread knocks and mocks Christianity, the followup posts, those attempting to draw Christians into legitimate discussions seem to be largely overlooked by them, and of course the logic ignored. I am sorry that is the way they wish to preserve their holy ground - but it fails to carry much weight with those who have observed at least as much 'Christianity' in action as anyone else. And rejected it based on what we have seen and studied.

  OTWO hit the nail squarely on the head. If I was wishing to write Jesus as Messiah in the first century, I would do as they probably did - take a long look at the OT, find places where I could deem he 'fulfilled' Messianic prophecy, and write it in. The 22nd Psalm and Isaiah 53 would be a great place to start. Then paint him born of a virgin, in Bethlehem, moved to Egypt, taught with parables, performed miracles, rejected by the Jews, rides in on a colt, spat upon, murdered and hung on a tree. And they did. It would be amazing simple to wait 30 or 40 years after Jesus died, after the Temple fell, and create this legend. Now - if they had written his words, prophecies, teachings at the time he was still living - and we are told even by the most Bible-supporting scholars themselves that they did not - that would be something else. In short, it is tremendously simple to make a man Jesus, into the God Jesus, if you already have the prophecies laying before in the synagogues, written centuries before.

  As far as his existence - I believe there were likely many Jesus' among the Jews of the 1st century. But the Jesus that Christians worship - the myth of Jesus, well likely that man never lived. I think I have said as much - or implied in previous posts. This is not about his having lived or not - it is about whether we should worship him based on the writings of an ancient book - much of which has been shown to be either parable or metaphor.

  Here's the point: If part of the Bible is metaphor - where do you Christians draw the line? Noah and flood was a metaphor, but Jesus is definitely real, a king now in heaven, someone we worship? Perhaps you have it wrong, and the Jews have it right? Noah was real, but Jesus was a wise man and not much more? If the snake, the naked lady, the apple are all metaphor, allegory, then what about the water to wine, the raising of Lazarus, the expulsion of Demons from men?

  How do we accept any of it as real, if we are excusing the parts that have been overridden by science as allegory? The flood has been shown to have been impossible as an earthly event - so it is now allegory. The snake, naked lady and original sin seems ridiculous to the mind of modern man [though in the era of the superstitious oral history from which it came it seemed acceptable], so now it becomes allegory. On and on.

  This is not, as LovelyLill assumes, and attack on peaceful Christians. This is an open discussion, a holding of an olive branch to those same Christians if they wish to prove what they believe is true. After all - in the minds of the dedicated Christian this is all important - my failure to believe as you do is tantamount to sentencing myself to Hell for all eternity.

  My point is clear - or at least I thought it was clear. If the Bible is real, how do we keep adjusting our understanding to excuse those parts that don't fit? How does that constant effort differ in the slightest from what the Watchtower did to justify it's doctrines? In other words - how are you Christian people different from them in any significant way? You do the same things they did - if something doesn't fit your either change your understanding of it - or more often, you just 'adjust' the correct way to look at it - if it fails the test of science and logic, then it was just allegorical, or perhaps even fallible. But of course Jesus himself can't be allegory - now can he? But I ask the hard question - Why can't he be? And if he is - don't you owe it to yourself to think about that instead of chasing a tail with no salvation attached? Just asking - bitterness has nothing to do with this discussion. I am not. I have already figured it out.

  Enough for now.

  Jeff
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  AK - Jeff

  wELL I guess Jeff didnt think I needed a response to MY question

  Actually Grace, I did not realize you asked a question to which response was required. I often use rhetorical questions, and thought you had. I will go look your post over more carefully. BRB

  Jeff