My Apologies to Christians.

by AK - Jeff 119 Replies latest jw experiences

  • tec
    tec

    Jeff-

    I enjoyed these quotes, thank you:

    "Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern, which have come under my observation, none appear to me so pure as that of Jesus." And "the very words only of Jesus...there will be found remaining the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man."

    As pure as He is, and his teachings and example, it would seem to follow that men would take these up, wouldn't it? Some do, many don't. Because, I think, we teach each other that the words mean other than what they say. Or that there are exceptions. Why? To protect our way of life, or our wants, our belongings, our families, our jobs. Because so few people are willing to put Christ first, except when it is convenient to do so - even though putting Christ first means show loving for others. But it's even written that this would happen - narrow path and all, that few find.

    Ghandi was a wise man also... and yet again, while people acknowledge this, few people are willing to sacrifice anything of theirs to follow what they believe is good and moral and wise. As for worshipping or deifying him - Ghandi never claimed to be God. In fact, neither did Christ - men made that claim for him - though it is written that he said He was the way through whom we go to see God.

    I also don't think its religion that people are tired of... but the hypocrisy and teachings that are in opposition to Christ that can often be found within. The teachings and behavior that are not in sync with the love of Christ. People are escaping or fleeing from that (and some are wearying of the entire faith aspect as well). Those people who escape to embrace the love of Christ that they cannot find from men who have a) forgotten it, or b) never knew it to begin with, might not all be together in one place, but I think they are making up the Body of Christ. Quietly. Humbly. Showing love and mercy and kindness to all. Sometimes we do find one another and gather together, sometimes we simply carry on living the life that Christ asks of us.

    Now to the matter of inspiration... :)

    if we take the writings en masse, must we not accept that all, not just part, are correct, whether we view that as 'inspired' or not?

    Short answer...

    No.

    Long answer as follows:

    Take the bible en masse... and even the writings within it say that the scribes have handle the laws falsely. Even Christ is written to have noted that exceptions were made to laws to account for their limitations. To account for the hardening of their hearts. So if you take the bible as inerrant... well, you CAN'T take the bible as inerrant, even according to it.

    The writings and the stories and the prophets all point to Christ. And so Christ is who we should listen to - and if He is the reflection of his Father, then we know God only through Christ. I'm not editing out the things I don't like, and it isn't in any way, a matter of saying the good outweighs the evil. I'm just looking at everything, through Christ - as a Christian, that is what I should be doing.

    Using your death row inmate example... It is more of a finding his/her wise words or compassionate actions to show that the inmate never pulled the trigger on that child's head to begin with, and that there was no fit of rage - because it is against his nature. Or perhaps even that the mitigating circumstances that never came out in the trial were that one of two children had to die... or they would both have died, because the one would have killed the other and then others, and then finally gone on to kill himself.

    Before you go on to say that there are many other ways that both children could be saved, and that he should have exhausted all of those methods first... love would decree that He did try, and none would have anything to do with it. (God, I am now talking about... not the death row inmate)

    Are we not interested in the 'whole truth'? It seems not.

    I agree. It doesn't seem so. To believe that someone (Jesus) is so pure - morally - and yet that pure person who expounded such morals as love, kindness and mercy above all else except for faith in Him and His Father... also loved a God of hate? This is a contradiction. But I follow that pure person, and He followed His Father. In fact I only truly loved God, when I loved Christ... and realized, sort of a wow moment, that Christ loved His Father.

    And last, the Word of God is the whole truth and nothing but the truth. But the Word of God is Christ... first in the flesh, now in the spirit. The Word of God is not the bible - the bible just tells us about him, and points us toward him. The rest is done 'in spirit'. I would also disagree that Christianity always had its basis in the bible - the bible wasn't even around in the beginning of Christianity. No, the basis of Christianity is Christ. Men went ahead and took the bible and made that the basis of what we now consider Christianity - instead of Christ, and instead of saying, these are the recordings we have of Christ, but it is the Spirit of Christ that we must seek and follow.

    It requires faith, and that will always be the bottom line. We can see Christ, and so also the Father through him. Or we can see a book that points toward Christ, and yet never look beyond the ink and paper that its written upon - and so also never see the Father.

    Peace also to you, Jeff,

    Tammy

  • AK - Jeff
    AK - Jeff

    Here was Grace's question:

    Why do we have to discuss the book YOU tell me sweetheart,who created the flowers, birds,bees,moon,stars,
    I wont tlak about the book BUT YOu tell me WHO....DID NO ONE CREATE them?????

    I don't think they were created. I think those lifeforms you mention evolved.

    I believe that the universe formed as the result of natural forces that ended 14 million years ago with a Big Bang that resulted from a singularity in which intensely hot, intensely dense matter exploded into a force that is still calculable today. The universe that we can see, test and measure is still expanding as a result of that explosion. It will do for an indefinite time in the future - long after it is applicable to man, for our sun, relatively new to the universe at about 4.5 billion years, will increase intensity in about another billion years give or take - it will boil our oceans away, destroy all life here. Two or three billion years hence it will engulf the earth and eventually 'die' in astronomical terms.

    All those cute little animals are the result of mathematical and physical laws that govern that universe. Given enough time, and given the same critical circumstances, it is likely that life will or has evolved in similar ways elsewhere in the universe, or in another universe perhaps.

    Even if I were inclined to believe that 'God' did it - I would not be inclined to believe it was the Christian God, for I find him monstrous, evil in his nature as described in the one book that promotes his worship - the Bible.

    But a very large problem looms for me in the concept of an Alpha and Omega God. If he is truly 'creator' - who created Him? While Christians and other believers in deity often throw up the objection 'how could the Big Bang happen, where did the matter come from?', they on the other hand ignore the very much larger problem of God - for God is by their estimation infinitely more complex than a pile of matter floating in space - yet they find it amazingly simple to conclude that He has always been. I find that mind boggling to say the least.

    Jeff

  • Mary
    Mary
    OTWO said: What if the spouse is all bathwater and no baby? I mean, what if the spouse has been so rundown by the bullying spouse that they feel worthless and deserve their fate? What if they stay with an abusive mate because they are afraid of something worse than abuse happening to them? That's much of religion that I know about. Religion tells it's members that they are nothing, God is everything. They need God because there's nothing better for them. As a matter of fact, if you enjoy life now without God, you will suffer eternally.

    If that's been your experience, then by all means, don't bother with religion. If someone is happy in their life without God, then why should I try to convince them to do anything else? If you're married to an abusive domineering mate then by all means, leave them. What I was trying to get across is that I don't believe the bible is 100% bunk anymore than I believe it's 100% true and that we all practice the "pick and choose" every day of our lives and religion is no different for many. While I believe that Jesus existed, I don't believe he was God incarnate. I believe that after he died, his followers deified him and made him out to be 'a god' or 'God'---something he never professed to be. See? I picked and chose. Just because I don't believe Jesus was God doesn't mean I can't believe that he didn't exist. And while I sincerely doubt that Adam and Eve were two literal people who were created 6,000 years ago (as there is plenty of evidence that we've been around for alot longer), that doesn't mean that I can't believe that the universe was probably made by Intelligent Design.

  • AK - Jeff
    AK - Jeff

    I respect that Mary. These sentences agree with my thinking, except for the final comment. I think 'Intelligent Design' could actually mean evolution - an application of natural selection, survival of the fittest, that could result in the same as an "Intelligent Designer" of supernatural nature.

    What I was trying to get across is that I don't believe the bible is 100% bunk anymore than I believe it's 100% true....While I believe that Jesus existed, I don't believe he was God incarnate. I believe that after he died, his followers deified him and made him out to be 'a god' or 'God'---something he never professed to be....And while I sincerely doubt that Adam and Eve were two literal people who were created 6,000 years ago (as there is plenty of evidence that we've been around for alot longer), that doesn't mean that I can't believe that the universe was probably made by Intelligent Design.

    If that Intelligent Designer ever was, I tend to think he/she/it had no interest in sticking around and getting into a committed relationship with his/her/its progeny here.

    Jeff

  • AK - Jeff
    AK - Jeff
    The Word of God is not the bible - the bible just tells us about him, and points us toward him.

    Accurately? How can you say? And if not - how do you know who you are really following? Legend or King?

    Jeff

  • lovelylil2
    lovelylil2

    Mary, good comments.

    jeff, you said you are holding out an olive branch to discuss the bible with Christians but as you know Christians believe in the bible. It is our faith book and since we accept it as such but you do not, we can never have a real discussion. the bible is a book of faith for those who BELIEVE in it. So If you have no faith in it, end of discussion.

    I think my main Q to you is this; since you no longer accept Christianity or the bible in any way, WHY would you want to take the time you do to continually try to disprove it?

    I contend that you cannot disprove a faith book by the mere fact that it is a faith book. And to go along with Mary's comments and some others, there are FACTUAL truths in the bible. The places, people, empires etc are real. There are literally hundreds of thousands of artifacts that prove the bible is a real historical book. And like my Rabbi friends said, she believes jesus was a real historical person so there is a lot of truth in the bible. But there are allegories that teach truth also. And these do not negate the "truthfulness" of the bible.

    One example is about JOB. I found out from my Jewish friends that JOB was not an actual person. The story of Job was written to tell the story of mans struggle to accept a God during times of adversity in his/her life. That is it. He is not a real person but yet the story of Job is relatable to many people, including myself. Now based on the way you view the bible, would you say the story of Job is real or fake? I say it is real even though Job is a character in the story. The story is relatable to real life events that occured both back in ancient times and up until our time.

    for me the real awesomeness of the book known as the bible is how it transcends time completey and people can still relate to its stories even after all these centuries. For me that is proof of a miraculous hand in it.

    The Watchtower cult are literalists and like many other fundamentalists that take every word literal in the bible, they damage the opinions of all Christians. We all look like fools for believing the bible in any way. But since leaving the WT and studying religion, the bible, Christianity and Judaism, I have an entirely different perspective about the book we call the Bible. In many ways I have more respect for it than ever before.

    Peace, Lilly

  • AK - Jeff
    AK - Jeff

    I must interject here to say this:

    I do not hate Christians. I actually love them. I respect the morals they live by, much like my own atheistic values. If it is the values-added package that they carry about, I am all for that - like the song of the 60's said "what the world needs now is Love sweet Love'. What I object to is the reliance on the Bible as a guide. The Bible is horrible. The Bible tells us about God and his evil actions, his merciless blood-lust. It is that God whom Bible-believers worship - or perhaps his Son, depending on the church you choose to look at. Either way - if I had a father like that - like the God of the OT - I would deny, deny, deny it. I would denounce not love such a horrible Father as that. One who delivers evil and calls it good. One who trods the lowly to the earth without conscience, one who laughs at the pain of his children when it is in the wave of his hand to repair it all. Not by killing his Son, but by just fixing it. He won' because he can't. He can't because he isn't. If he isn't then his Son is not either - just a man Jesus. A good one perhaps, long dead, still dead, of no value to us today except in his nice sayings and teaching.

    I say apply those teachings - but ignore the myth that makes them anything to do with a god of love. He doesn't exists.

    Jeff

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Jeff,

    I have always spoken honestly and truthfully about how I view the bible and God and Jesus and never once said I am right and everyone else is wrong, nor have I said that I speak for Gor or Jesus or anyone but myself.

    I understand that you, like many others, do not take personal revelation as proof or evidence of anything and I can accept that and understand that.

    I do believe that Man and Earth came to be via the evolutionary process that started after the formation of the Universe, where we differ is on our view of How and Why the universe came to be in the first place and in THAT regard neither of US is going on proof or evidence, but on theory (your part) and belief ( my part).

    Do you feel that we can't co-exist with these opposite views? do you feel that my views warrant ridicule and my inteligence be called into question because I h ave these views?

    Do you view my as a hypocrit because I accept the bibel for what it is, a historical book written by Man, some of them inspired bu God to write what they beleived to be the messages of God, and NOT the innerrant word of God?

    Do you see my view of the NT as the true revelation of God, via his son Jesus and as such that because of this the "NT God" is the correct revelation of GOD, that my view is hypcritical or dismissive of the OT god simply because that God doesn't fit into MY view of what I think God is?

  • tec
    tec

    OTWO - I sincerely appreciate your kindness in not wanting to cause me harm (in thought and/or emotion) , but despite my avatar, I am not a delicate little flower I have no problem discussing my faith with those who do not agree with it. I do have a problem with mocking, and the cruelty and insults and hurt and anger that often go with. I won't treat others in that way, myself... for I have no desire to hurt anyone. And I always strive to walk away before I engage in a eye for eye return of it.

    You said: If they could ditch the insistence on strict adherence to the teachings (as Buddhism has done) I could accept Christianity as more beneficial to it's followers.

    I'm wondering if you meant ditching strict adherence to rules and doctrines? Because the teachings are love and mercy above all else. No need to ditch strict adherence to those. Those become part of what we are. Rules and doctrines do not.

    I think her "Christian" values are really her own values expressed thru Christianity, similar to "Buddhist" values.

    People are fond of saying this to me, and I understand why they have to think so. But I am the one who knows myself. The more I love Him (Christ), the more I come to understand Him, the more love and peace I have within myself and for others. I had some before... but I had NOTHING compared to what I have now.

    Tammy

  • tec
    tec

    Lovelylil and Mary - going back to page three, beautifully said, both of you.

    Tammy

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit