On this thread? whatever. This isn't my first day at the beach with pious christians.
My Apologies to Christians.
by AK - Jeff 119 Replies latest jw experiences
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dinah
Can we have a day at the beach without pious Christians?
Can they not take a deep breath and see how crazy it all it?
*never thought I'd agree with Gregor*
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Gregor
Follow me my child and I will refresh you and buy you some salt water taffy that brings everlasting life.
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AK - Jeff
I see Gregor's point here. He makes it more bluntly than I, but convincingly so, if one listens to his words.
Yes, I began the 'mud-slinging' as it was referred. That was a tongue in cheek parody of course, meant to raise a little giggle from the thinkers, maybe a bit of ire from the self-smug. And it did both.
Since then it has turned into rough and tumble debate, with some passion, and some compassion at times.
Basically I have said - with tons of words - 'Isn't this Christian thing a bit silly for grownups to accept today? The entire idea that it all started because a naked lady ate God's apple. It all ended [but didn't] when God converted to a man and died for three days to erase all the horror that arose from the naked lady eating God's apple at the bidding of a snake'
It has gone in several directions from there - some interesting, some quite stupid at times. I have seen some interesting ideas arise - among the oddest of them, that I am bitter because of my Jw experience, and taking it out on Christians - even that comment was tempered with judgment, that Jw's are not real Christians, therefore I have no 'Christian experience' to draw from - pretty lame of course, since Jw's say the same.
As far as the statement that I believe my morals to be higher than Jesus' morals- WTF? I never said that - although Jesus in reality has no morals, since he is dead long ago. And we have no way of knowing what morals he 'actually' lived by, since his history was written [perhaps invented would be a better term] 30 to 50 years after he was dead. We supposedly know his words - and some biblical scholars don't agree that they are his words. I did say that my values are at least as good or better than that of Christian values. And they are. But then, from that, one must delve in to judgment calls.
Let's say this: there is no evidence to me that Mahatma Gandhi's moral values were less than that of Jesus' claimed moral values. And we can confirm Gandhi's - we can't Jesus'.
I know a couple of pretty nice Christian people. But, just like those pesky non-Christian Jw's we used to be - they are constantly looking for openings to 'convert' me or others - or just 'Praise Jesus'. You flip the Jw coin over - and there you see another version of it in them. I know that those who have jumped out the Jw frying pan into the Christian fire don't know they have done so. Observers do.
It's late, I am on my way out the door to work. I have found this all very stimulating. But to me, Gregor,OTWO, and others I am sure the inanity of Christian thought just makes it impossible to reason with them. After all - as this thread started - to them it is all built on goofy premises about snakes and naked people, and how one man could die for all man - but of course he waited 4000 years to do it - and all the insane drivel about miracles along the way. Of course, also along the way God killed a couple million people because they got in the way of his land grabbing 'people' - also discounted by Christians as 'insignificant' in the matter. As is anything that interupts the 'Christian dream'.
I find it most amazing that Christians of the newer variety now find it reasonable to discount nearly all the Bible if it is inconvenient to their arguments - but they never cast aside the central figure of that book - the book that announced him. If in doubt, call it alegory, call it metaphor, call it history written with fallibility. But never accept that all the above might be applied to their Jesus, and should be, if they apply it to the rest of the book.
Self delusion is a powerful force - one of the most powerful on our planet.
Well - night all.
Jeff
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THE GLADIATOR
There seems to be a tendency to think that Christians are a different breed to those who have not adopted Jesus. We are all sensitive people who share the same world and live very similar lives. The greatest difference between people in the western world is their choice of work.
There are both bigoted Christians and athiests. There there are also kind and generous Christians and athiests. Some Christians have 'loose morals' while while some athiests live very rule driven lives. Our theological perspective need not be a barrier between us and others. I have Christian friends myself and was once befriended by a Hindu family. I spent my early years working for a small company that was almost entirely Mormon and they too befriended me. Nice people but they have yet to wake up and smell the coffee. (not allowed)
I do not consider myself an atheist. Just someone who having given back my Jehovah t-shirt, has not found a suitable replacement that I can be sure exists. I am not devoid of a spiritual life, its just that it doesn't at present involve a deity. (Now I am waiting for someone to tell me that's what an atheist is)
The anger I once felt at the way religion affected my life and cost me my family has burnt itself out. Life is too short to carry grudges. If people are nice to me then I don't much care who they pray to, or which Holy book they keep by their bed. As I have said before, I have my own illusions.
Some people feel a need to adopt a creature that they can direct their love towards. This is why people have pets. Now that the inquisitions are over and the Catholic church has closed its torture chambers, adopting Jesus as a target for love and hope is not a threat to the world.
If people want to pick out from the bible the nice things the man from Galilee said, and it helps them to be kinder and more considerate of others, so be it. I would like to adopt him myself, but alas, my line of work would cause a conflict of interest.
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PSacramento
When I see the bigotry and hatred spewed by some christians and see the corruption and lies and cover-ups by some organizations, when I see the lack of love, accepteance and tolerance shown by some christians, I see that as a sign of NOT ENOUGH christianity, not a sign of too much.
Jesus's message of how to live, with good character and virtue, was not unique per say, Aristotle had similar views long before Jesus came.
The eternal message of love, compassion, justuce are common ground in most religions.
As one person once said to me," of course they sound the same, truth is truth no matter the religion".
Sure Christianity has some unique values that are prioritized such as humilty and forgiveness, not that other don't have them, but they tend to NOT be to CORE of the teachings.
Fact is, what we see when people act they way they do, without love, is a failure of Christianity in that person.
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tec
If I am not mistaken, I believe this discussion was concerning faith (at least for my part in it) and was not a defense on the Christian organized religion - as I already stated that it had its share of atrocities. I cannot answer for everything that someone who says they are a Christian does, though in truth I am sorry for what some of the Christian world has done to people... I can only live the way I believe to show what my faith in Christ yields. As PSac said, theirs is a case of no or not enough Christ.
I did not believe that this was a rough and tumble debate. I thought and appreciated that everyone shared their beliefs with compassion and sincerity and respect... at least until the very end. At that point, Gregor did accuse me of... I don't know... fabricating my experience with atheists before coming to this board. Perhaps he needs to believe that.
If we are speaking in a general term about groups of people and not individuals, there is arrogance and condescension and piousness on both sides (for what is piousness and superiority if not the belief that my morals and way of life is better than yours - or that my intelligence is much higher than yours, or that the inanity of Christians makes it impossible (for non-Christians) to reason with them)
But, Jeff, it was the virtues that Jesus mentioned that you said yours were equal or superior to:
So while some of the virtues mentioned by Jesus are commendable, I believe mine to be equal or superior,
Anyway, I did enjoy the opportunity to share my faith, and hear about others, so thank you all.
Tammy
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ProdigalSon
I wanted to put this up here a couple of days ago, since it is so pertinent to Jeff's original post.
I don't think this guy has the whole picture in this book, he definitely fails to see beyond the Bible's many layers of deception in order to realize that the book has some profound esoteric value. I don't really know who he is, he is kind of a mysterious author in that there are no other books attributed to him. Some suspect that his name "Lloyd M. Graham" could be an alias for a better known author with a very similar literary style named Alvin Boyd Kuhn, a student of Gerald Massey...
http://m_euser.tripod.com/gmass/kmarchiv.htm
...but one thing he brings to the light for sure is the Bible's basic metaphysical meaning. Check out this excerpt from the book "Deceptions and Myths of the Bible"....
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Gregor
I suppose reading these deep discussions can be of help to some who are still searching. I personally think they leave most people in a fog. In my case I went from a devout, prayerful, sincere JW to a devout atheist within two years. Talk about the tingle down the leg of being born again...How about the realization dawning on you that life is what is right there in front of you. Plus you have, as a human being, the intellect and powers of observation to look at the natural life that surrounds you. I am a 'spiritual' person the sense that I see myself as an individual in the flow of life and death and I not only accept it, I embrace it .
What happens after you die? Nothing.
What about those who strongly believe in an after life, heaven, hell, 72 virgins, a troublesome ghost or just flit around like tinkerbell for eternity? For some of them it can inspire horrific slaughters of innocents. For most, it is a comforter againts the cold winds of real life. So be it. I prefer to deal with reality. I reject the notion that you have an exclusive franchise on morality, goodness or insight.
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tec
I reject the notion that you have an exclusive franchise on morality, goodness or insight.
And so you should.
Tammy