My Apologies to Christians.

by AK - Jeff 119 Replies latest jw experiences

• 

  tec

  The Word of God is not the bible - the bible just tells us about him, and points us toward him.

  Accurately? How can you say? And if not - how do you know who you are really following? Legend or King? -Jeff

  Lets say I have no religious affiliation at all. None whatsoever, and yet I came across these writings about this man, Jesus of Nazareth. Some people accepted him as a messiah, some as the Son of God, some as a prophet, and some as God incarnate. Others rejected him altogether, others say he was a man turned into a legend, others say he never even existed to begin with.

  Few people, however, can say that the teachings and writings attributed to him are anything other than pure and moral and of love. Again, where is the lie in that?

  So I turn my attention to those things that He taught and I test those. Perhaps then, finding no lie in those things, I give him a chance. Perhaps I give those teachings on love, mercy, forgiveness... a chance, and for now, I set aside all the miracles and things attributed to him.

  Yet the more I learn about him (through those things as love and mercy and forgiveness), the more I learn to trust him and to love him. I also begin to consider the faith that HE had for His Father. And so this relationship grow and continues until I am loving Him for the love and mercy and forgiveness that He has inspired in me, that he has inspired me to show others, even to share with others -because if you love others, don't you want to share your joy and peace with them?

  It is their choice to accept or reject what they wish of that.

  So now I've come so far... perhaps now I am ready to go to Him, in Spirit - as He said to do, and so far He has not led me astray - rather than through a book that simply told me about him. And while I have come to know him somewhat through the fruits of the spirit, and OF him through these writings, perhaps now I, through the Spirit, I will truly know him... and understand both the faith and the miracles professed to him.

  And perhaps not. Perhaps I won't go beyond the simple merits of the teachings of a moral man. But I will still have recognized the truth in the love and mercy and kindness and forgiveness written about him, and inspired in me from reading them.

  So in the end, imo, the answer to your question... a lie cannot inspire such pure love and truth in me - or in those who wrote about that truth.

  I hope I haven't avoided or run from anything you've asked Jeff. If I have, please do point it out.

  Peace to you,

  Tammy
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  how and in what manner have you been hurt by others' belief in the God of the Bible?

  Christopher Hitchens, author of God is Not Great, subtitled How Religion Poisons Everything mentions the fear of freedom; the wish to be slaves and told what to do. Religion/belief takes advantage of that wish.

  My own thoughts:

  There is no evidence that belief in the God of the Bible makes believers better people. I feel the negatives outweigh the positives.
  Although I am not a homosexual or an unmarried fornicator, others' belief in the God of the Bible has oppressed homosexuals and unmarried fornicators. Regardless of how individuals try to be not so judgmental, they seem to generally fall into line on at least one of these two areas, if not both.

  In the United States (and other places), a politician (in a country that separates church and state) must declare belief in the God of the Bible. That's not the law, but a reality. He/She has to bend to voters' desires to forbid homosexuality, and to a lesser degree- fornication.

  Believers in the Bible often believe that sex is for the bearing of children. Belief in the God of the Bible leads many to believe in the prohibition of birth control- that belief caused the Pope to tell Africans not to use condoms and that belief has contributed to the spread of AIDS.
  
  Other's beliefs in any God allows someone to come along and tell them how to believe. That leads to wars and terrorism. A belief led to Sept. 11th attacks on the U.S. and a belief in the God of the Bible led to hatred of Muslims afterward. It seems that many strong believers are so sure that God is on THEIR side of any issue.

  Strong belief (of any kind) convinces people that they are doing good while they might actually be engaged in hideous crimes against humanity.

  Belief convinces people that death is not the end of life. I already mentioned the Sept 11th attack, but there are plenty more martyrs for their causes. Just as JW's think they can die rather than have a simple blood transfusion, believers believe they can do many other things and receive eternal rewards for it.

  I see nothing wrong with loving your neighbor as yourself or other wise things that Buddha or Jesus tried to say to enlighten people. But the price of "believing" seems to be too much to spread that message. I know there will be those who say they spread that message without any oppression or judgmentalness, but I say they are an extreme minority of believers. Believe in God if you want to, but believing that God has this book of instructions for you, or verbal instructions for you, or instructions through other humans- that is the danger.
• 

  snowbird

  how and in what manner have you been hurt by others' belief in the God of the Bible?

  Thanks.

  Syl
• 

  mouthy

  MY Darling Jeff JeffYour Faith is GREATER than mine....I couldnt possibly believe in the big bang
  answer. I lived in LONDON England Through Millions of BIG BANGS.... lost my baby of 3 days in one.
  I NEVER in those 6 years of big bangs saw ONE good thing come from them....
  But if you believe all that...... It is because MY GOD allows us all to believe whatever we want...
  I was foolish enough to believe the WT,& Two bytwos,version of their GOD .Now I do what my GOD
  allows me to do to THINK for myself & your doing that also .
• 

  AK - Jeff

  Good points OTWO. They mimic my opinions closely.

  Well stated, Tec. I understand your point. And if that emotion leads to the step of 'accepting' Jesus as a supernatural being, it will indeed affect your judgment, your worldview, your rearing of your children. Some of that may be good. But I doubt it superior to my virtues - shaped by the evolution of man, real problems on this earth, not by invisible people in invisible places.

  I wonder though - what if the object of your affection was not Jesus, but Buddha, or Mohamed? Much of the same sticky-feely-love can be found in other cultures, cultures either unfamiliar with or un-engaged to the Christian Christ. If you had been born in Saudi Arabia, it is almost guaranteed that if you sought such feelings to the finish line, it would be toward another 'Christ' not Jesus - yet you would demand just as strongly that your God was proven to be superior to all others - that perhaps you were 'drawn to him' in the same way you believe you are to Jesus.

  While no harm is likely done [in most cases] to yourself, by accepting Jesus, who is to say how overall history is swayed by such culture. Of the atheists I know, all of them possess equal moral character to Christians. Those atheists do not form their values from counterproductive judgmentalism. Morals, influenced by religious opinion, both Christian and otherwise, shapes policy about stem cell research, abortion, homosexuality, and war. To name but a few. While the Christian institutions sometimes influence those people - it is indeed the actual person who harms our society by application of religion [for instance by preventing stem-cell research that may save thousands of lives] to the laws of our land. That is a very unfortunate aspect of Jesus' influence.

  So while some of the virtues mentioned by Jesus are commendable, I believe mine to be equal or superior, unfettered by religious superstition, or moral values superimposed upon me by a culture dedicated to the idea that invisible beings are responsible for both good and evil in our lives. Such delusions, when they adversely affect the life of others are clearly damaging to society. So we are affected - as a society - adversely.

  Jeff
• 

  believingxjw

  There are many Christians who do not condemn homosexuals. Some have elected practicing homosexuals as leaders of their congregations or church. There are many Christians who while not believing in abortion would not condemn a woman who felt she needed to do what she needed to do. On the contrary they would offer her loving friendship if she wanted it. There are many Christians who understand divorce, adultery and living arrangements are personal matters that should not be used to divide and conquer another human. There are many Christians who believe that judging should be left to Christ and that we all fail and no one can say to another what have you been doing?

  Who today does not know about such Christians who march arm and arm with their gay friends? Who today does not know of the Christians who decry religious bigotry of any kind including toward those of another faith? The comments on this thread by Jeff and OTWO purposely leave out these Christians. The Watchtower taught us all about the big bad worldly people who were so immoral and depraved and misguided, they conveniently left out those in the "world" who lived exemplary lives, people who did as Jesus taught, people who would sacrifice their life for another human being though they were a stranger. The Watchtower neglected to mention those people because they did not fit into their teaching that worldly people are, well, worldly meaning not as good as JWs and not as educated in the important things as JWs were.

  I am getting the same vibes from this thread. Why only concentrate on those Christians who fit the negative model and leave out all those who do NOT fit the negative model?
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  believingxjw: Why only concentrate on those Christians who fit the negative model and leave out all those who do NOT fit the negative model?

  OTWO: I know there will be those who say they spread that message without any oppression or judgmentalness, but I say they are an extreme minority of believers.

  Bravo for you. The statement still stands. I have probably been guilty of it with "believers" just as you are guilty of it with "non-believers." We really gotta stop throwing around the idea that people that make general statements, especially with an understanding of exceptions, are being just like WTS. My general statements were made thoughtfully.

  People are typically good. It's true of JW's and it's true of atheists and it's true of believers of all sorts. I said what happens when people believe in the Bible as the standard. There's rules in there, sometimes someone else will explain those rules. I know there are some Christians that aren't like all that, but the general statements stand. "I feel the negatives outweigh the positive." I know some will feel opposite of that.
• 

  believingxjw

  The difference is you say "they are an extreme minority" they are not. They may not be getting the headlines as much as the fundies but they do exist and many more than most realize.
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  AK - Jeff

  There are many Christians who do not condemn homosexuals. Some have elected practicing homosexuals as leaders of their congregations or church. There are many Christians who while not believing in abortion would not condemn a woman who felt she needed to do what she needed to do. On the contrary they would offer her loving friendship if she wanted it. There are many Christians who understand divorce, adultery and living arrangements are personal matters that should not be used to divide and conquer another human. There are many Christians who believe that judging should be left to Christ and that we all fail and no one can say to another what have you been doing?

  ok - define many. I live in a small midwestern town full of Christians who do not fit that mold - but maybe they do where you live.

  Jeff
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  OnTheWayOut

  I would have used "extreme minority" in my response to your response, but I saw how upset you were. I left it out. Since you point out my choice of words in my opinion, I will put it back.

  I made an opinion statement and will stand by it. Note the clear statement that it's my opinion: ...but I say they are an extreme minority of believers.
  
  You are welcome to believe that the wonderful, nonjudgmental Christians that welcome gay couples and don't disapprove of certain life choices are not an extreme minority.