And PSac -
Jeff - there are Christians right here, who believe in Christ, who see God through Christ, who have love among themselves and for others, through Christ... gathering together, here.
We do exist... because of Him who we follow.
Tammy
My Apologies to Christians.
by AK - Jeff 119 Replies latest jw experiences
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tec
Oh man, I forgot Syl... and Mouthy...
Tammy
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AK - Jeff
I think my main Q to you is this; since you no longer accept Christianity or the bible in any way, WHY would you want to take the time you do to continually try to disprove it?
I suppose for the same reason that if mankind all believed in Santa, melded their lives around him, waited for his to fly across the sky on Christmas eve - I would be among those seeking to wake them up to reality and shake this delusion so fraught with obvious flaws.
With every inability for Christians to seriously defend their positions, every time they run for cover from real questions, real problems with the idea of 'believing' and 'faith' - premises made in the void of uncertainty to begin with, I am a bit more assured of my decision to exit the delusions you so enjoy.
Several years ago I was on your side. I spent days debating with a poster who is no longer with us. I took the Christian side, he the non-theist side. I swore that I would never jump that fence - and I meant it. But I did - his arguments were not possible to defeat with superstition and 'faith' and 'hope' and twisting the scriptures to say what I want. We parted friends, much as I hope you and I will do. But it nagged me. It made me think. It gave me pause, time to reflect on the insane ideologue of Christianity. It turned me 180 degrees over time - not at the moment - for he was right. I was deluded, and enjoyed the delusion. But delusion is a waste of time and a waste of humanity.
Once I admitted that there were very serious problems with my theology - not the doctrine of one church over another - but the entire premise of god delivering man from sin in the manner presented in the Bible - then, and only then - I began to dig deeper. I dug into myself, and into philosophy, and into religious thought, and into biblical exegesis, until my brain ached. Then I saw it - I saw the delusion that I had denied.
That moment of epiphany meant more to my life, the use on my mind in positive roles than any moment in my life. I finally saw it. I don't know if you will ever 'see it' - I can't control that. I don't want to. I just hope that Christians will learn to think - trust the 'real' senses given them, instead of the false delusions upon which Christianity rests.
That's all. And I like to debate. It keeps my mind focused and sharp. I have debated your side. It is a losing proposition. I receive the occasional email or PM from individuals thanking me for having helped them to see more clearly. Not that I am wise. Far from it. But a neuron fired and that lead to thinking instead of believing for me, and for others. That is enough.
Jeff
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snowbird
Tammy.
I believe the words of the Bible to be only as inerrant as those who wrote them.
However, I believe the Message the Bible contains to be flawless.
The Message is that God created us, the first human pair jeopardized our standing with Him, and He came to our rescue.
I believe that.
Syl
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believingxjw
Jeff,
Thomas Jefferson did not believe Jesus was the Messiah but, as you said, he nonetheless found, and admitted, that many of his teachings had true merit. He kept what he thought was good and right and left off what he felt was not.
After leaving the JWs we are free Christians. Christians free to do as Jefferson did but for different reasons. We are free to make up our own minds on the Bible and where the various parts fit into our beliefs. Did the ancient Jews really believe that the whole of their scriptures were literal accounts? From what I've read they may not have. The literal view of all scripture is a relatively recent one. Fundy's like to take the literal view because it gives them more power. But we are free. We can use our powers of reason to see what may be literal and what is not. Where the "story" ends and facts come into play. Jesus used stories to teach. Would it not be possible that his Father did the same? Jesus brought his Jewish followers into a new era of understanding of scripture and his Father. He called Moses to account on various things. He moved them forward.
"But of course Jesus himself can't be allegory - now can he? But I ask the hard question - Why can't he be? And if he is - don't you owe it to yourself to think about that instead of chasing a tail with no salvation attached? Just asking - bitterness has nothing to do with this discussion. I am not. I have already figured it out."
It's fine to believe Jesus is allegory. It's fine to believe him the Son of God. It's fine to believe he was only a good man or prophet. It's fine to believe he never existed. Where the problems come in is not in the various beliefs but how we engage with others on our beliefs. If we do as the Watchtower does and claim that all who disagree with us cannot be true Christians or if we take our beliefs and force them down anothers throat then that is the problem. The beliefs themselves whether it be "Jesus never existed," to "Jesus is God," are personal beliefs and unless they are used as clubs to humiliate or force conversion they should be respected.
How is it that it's well recognized that after leaving the Organization we all go through a process of change and learning but those who remain Christians and do the same with their faith and understanding of the Bible are somehow less Christians for it? Or worse fools. And if a Christian is a fool for believing why is that a problem anyway? Not all Christians force their beliefs, not all Christians live self-centered lives. Christians can be productive members of their communities just as anyone else. They can support their government at times and other times firmly disagree. They can extend a hand of friendship and withdraw it when circumstances require it.
If one man believes Darwin had true things to say and another believes Jesus had true things to say so what? Should the believer in evolution look down on the Christian or the Christian look down on him? How does that promote reason? Jefferson and Adams did not agree on everything and there were times of difficulty between them but in their communications at least they attempted to reason together and it seems respected the others right to his own opinions on things. There is the Organization and its teachings and there is the Bible. Some of us have decided to leave both others have decided to leave one, the Organization, and keep the other. Why is that a problem? Or does the Organization's insistence on being right carry over to our lives after the Organization as well?
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snowbird
Well said, BelievingXJW.
I would like to propound a question to Jeff.
Discounting the WT organization, how and in what manner have you been hurt by others' belief in the God of the Bible?
Syl
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AK - Jeff
how and in what manner have you been hurt by others' belief in the God of the Bible?
As far as I recall, I have not been hurt by other's belief in the god of the Bible. At least not directly.
I believe that all of mankind is severely damaged by religious belief, however. Great minds, wonderful potential, is lost to an empty delusion. I believe that when man sheds this fantasy, if he ever does, we will see mankind race forward in areas unknown to us now. I have been hurt, like you have been hurt - by the untold losses of this folly.
Jeff
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snowbird
As far as I recall, I have not been hurt by other's belief in the god of the Bible. At least not directly.
Good! I'm glad to hear that.
I believe that all of mankind is severely damaged by religious belief, however. Great minds, wonderful potential, is lost to an empty delusion. I believe that when man sheds this fantasy, if he ever does, we will see mankind race forward in areas unknown to us now. I have been hurt, like you have been hurt - by the untold losses of this folly.
Jeff
I believe the folly lies not in religious beliefs per se, but in using religious beliefs as an excuse to do evil.
Syl
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PSacramento
I believe that all of mankind is severely damaged by religious belief
Indeed, mankind has suffered much from the LACK of correct belief ( Love) and the over indulgence in incorrect religion ( organized religious power).
How can anyone find fault in this:
21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.
or:
Love thy neighbour as thyself
or this lesson:
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
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lovelylil2
Jeff,
I kinda sorta agree with you in some ways but for me personally, I believe humans have been damaged by religious institutions, not the idea of religion in itself. These institutions are nothing more than a way for men to control and dominate other men for thier own power, gratification etc. And are more or less money making schemes. They are man made and not ONE of them can claim exclusive posession of the Almighty God of the Universe.
For me christianity is not about religion, it is about a relationship with God through the person of Jesus Christ and has little to do with bible or other holy book interpretation and has more to do with living the golden rule; do unto others, and showing the love of Christ to all of mankind.
Are there loving people outside of my faith group, absolutely!
Probably those like me who are still Christians would want you to understand that is was not Christianity that hurt you in any way or someone's faith in Jesus but a man made organization claiming (falsely) to be the only representative of God. And sadly there are many organizations just like it masquerading as true Christianity and they have wrecked the faith of many. For when people are spirually abused by those claiming to speak for God, they blame God himself. Even though God does not condone them nor their actions except in their own misguided minds.
Lilly