by Dogpatch 270 Replies latest jw friends
Got to say Reniaabator, it is comedy watching you scramble and get your butt kicked here. Some things never change, eh?
+++. Nothing new under the sun. Note that the argument is still: They are not false prophets - NOT because what they said came true, but because they are claiming the technicality of somehow not being prophets at all, after actually making a false prophecy. Pretty fancy comedic logic there.
If looking at bible prophecy, chronology, predicted signs and events and being mistaken on their fulfilment is a hanging offence as you all seem to be making it then no one would ever try and decipher Bible prophecy.
Mr.Debator:
Seriously?" Being mistaken on their fullfilment?" " Trying to DECIPHER Bible Prophecy???? " ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Kicking out and Disfellowshipping anyone that says " hey look we were wrong lets come clean and admit it"
I would say your own words hang you, you would also IF you were being honest. BUT you are looking at it from the JW point of view ONLY.
HOW MANY ANTITYPES of bible charachters HAVE BEEN ASSIGNED to the Modern day JWs? How many prophecies have been assigned modern day fullfilment.(even parables where "fish caught in nets" are assigned its modern day equivilent fulfilment !!! ..... TOO MANY for me to get into. ....AT THE END of the day when an organization makes THOSE kinds of claims, then, when they say "only a few years, at most, remain in this system of things", well, you they kinda put themselves in the bullshit deptment. Wouldnt yOu saY??? BE HONEST! HONESTY IS WHY YOU BECAME A JW. IT SHOULD BE THE REASON YOU LEAVE JWs.
Hi Jwoods
I recommend you do some research. You will find that witnesses are certainly in no way unique in trying to establish fulfilment of bible prophecies, signs, chronoology. Jews started this with looking for the Messiah and early Chrsitians used bible prophecies to escape Jerusalem before it got destroyed by Romans. Since then nearly every Christian religion has tried to establish when various signs and prophecies have been fulfilled.
Like I said we are told to use decernment/understanding on signs and prophecies to establish their fulfilment this is not a crime.
But claiming to be inspired and be say words directly from Jehovah is.
Hi wasblind
Thankyou and I happily reply. This site is confusing enough with the amount of posters but my name is debator for the purpose of debating on here and using it means it's easier to know who are directly questioning my points.
The reasoning book makes specific points on why false prophets that claim to be inspired are found out aka the words they claim to have got from Jehovah himself simply don't come to true. But as witnesses we have always said our understandings from scripture are simply that! and refinable if the bible prophecy fulfilments around us show up a mistaken understanding we refine our understanding.
'debator' said: Hi Jwoods
I recommend you do some research. You will find that witnesses are certainly in no way unique in trying to establish fulfilment of bible prophecies, signs, chronoology. Jews started this with looking for the Messiah and early Chrsitians used bible prophecies to escape Jerusalem before it got destroyed by Romans. Since then nearly every Christian religion has tried to establish when various signs and prophecies have been fulfilled.
My reply: we are not talking about other group...we are speaking of Jehovah's Witnesses- proven false prophets.
'debator' said:
Like I said we are told to use decernment/understanding on signs and prophecies to establish their fulfilment this is not a crime.
My reply: Something the WT has gravely lacked!
'Debator' said:
But claiming to be inspired and be say words directly from Jehovah is.
My reply: The Wt has said they are not inspired, but contradicted themselves by claiming to be God's sole channel of communication to man, his modern-day prophet, calling their literature food from God, and calling one of their prophecies "the Creator's promise"
'debator' said"
Hi wasblind
Thankyou and I happily reply. This site is confusing enough with the amount of posters but my name is debator for the purpose of debating on here and using it means it's easier to know who are directly questioning my points.
The reasoning book makes specific points on why false prophets that claim to be inspired are found out aka the words they claim to have got from Jehovah himself simply don't come to true. But as witnesses we have always said our understandings from scripture are simply that! and refinable if the bible prophecy fulfilments around us show up a mistaken understanding we refine our understanding.
my reply: Then JWs are false prophets per your own words. They have claimed a prophecy of their to be "the Creator's promise". That means they are claiming that what they said would ahppen was God's words. Refine? Hmm, another of Reniaa's favorite words. Doesn't apply to the org- they cover their tracks..not refine.
Hi Jwoods
I recommend you do some research. You will find that witnesses are certainly in no way unique in trying to establish fulfilment of bible prophecies, signs, chronoology. Jews started this with looking for the Messiah and early Chrsitians used bible prophecies to escape Jerusalem before it got destroyed by Romans. Since then nearly every Christian religion has tried to establish when various signs and prophecies have been fulfilled.
Like I said we are told to use decernment/understanding on signs and prophecies to establish their fulfilment this is not a crime.
But claiming to be inspired and be say words directly from Jehovah is.
I don't think I am the one who needs the benefit of research. I think you are the one who needs to take a dictionary and look up the meaning of the word prophet. Then ask yourself if the "new system of things" or the "thousand year reign of christ" happened in 1914, 1918, 1925, or 1975.
chrisjoel, the only modern-day type that the WT has established themselves as is the Hananiah class. They mirrored him in uttering a false prophecy, calling it the "Creator's promise" that the new world would come before the 1914 generation completely passed off the scene.
Debator,
First of all, you have continually ignored and rejected the Society's own explicit definition of 'False Prophet' and are teaching something else, which you have made up - which makes you an apostate - so I'm not sure faithful JW's should be listening to your twisted satanic reasoning. The WTBTS definition - which you reject because it doesn't suit you - is worth repeating again...and again...because it's just so accurate:
"True, there have been those in times past who predicted an 'end to the world', even announcing a specific date. Yet nothing happened. The 'end' did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying." (Awake, Oct. 8, 1968).
So saith the Society, and in this case, they're quite right. This definition is Biblically justified and describes the WTBTS perfectly and so, out of their own mouths, they are unequivocally condemned as a serial 'False Prophet'.
Now, if you reject the Society's teachings on this matter as wrong why should anyone believe you when you insist their other teachings are correct?
Regardless, you do reject the Society in this, and make up your very own lies. You claimed that it was a " Bible fact " that for one to be identified as a false prophet they had to have specifically claimed "inspiration" when making their false predictions and false pronouncements in God's name. So, I questioned your supposed Biblical rule and challenged you to show that in all cases where "False Prophets" are mentioned in the Bible they are shown to have claimed "inspiration" from God, which you insist specifically MUST occur for them to be accounted as "False Prophets".
You haven't provided a single instance of this. Not one. Despite claiming it as a " Bible fact " and a set rule.
In fact, in nearly all cases where "False Prophets" are identified in the Bible they don't explicitly call themselves prophets (which makes a nonsense of the argument "But..but.. the Society never claimed to be a prophet" which actually, they did, explicitly) and, these biblical "False Prophets"generally don't specifically claim 'inspiration', which you said was crucial in Scripturally identifying them as a "False Prophet". If Biblical "False Prophets" didn't need to specifically claim the title 'Prophet' or claim 'inspiration' to be rightly identified as "False Prophets" then neither does the Society!
The Bible makes a liar of you.
So, to reiterate, these "False Prophet's" identified in the Bible almost never explicitly claimed to be "Prophets", and they almost never explicitly claimed "inspiration". By your reasoning then, the Bible accuses them falsely. But no, their ACTIONS and WORDS made clear that they were attempting to act as Prophets by making false predictions and false pronouncements while invoking God's name and authority - just as the WTBTS has done - and they implied inspiration by using other terms and phrases - other than "inspiration" but which amount to EXACTLY the same thing! - EXACTLY AS THE SOCIETY AND IT'S LEADERS HAVE DONE!
Now are you really going to make me paste example after example, from Russell's time onwards, of quotes where the Society has claimed inspiration as a Prophet, although not always in those words, just as "False Prophets" in the Bible did not use those words, yet were rightfully condemned as "False Prophets"?
You know I can. You know I will. So why don't you just save us all some time, drop your lies, drop your rejection of the Bible evidence and even the Society's teaching, hang up your sheep's covering and just admit to trying to deceive on this issue? If you continue with this dishonest line of un-reason, even the JW's still mesmerized by the WT will be begin to see through your ridiculous and desperate apologetics, as everyone else can.
That the WTBTS has since it's very beginning been a False Prophet, by any Scriptural, reasonable standard is a cast iron fact. Deal with it.
This subject is actually why I dont trust or even like the Society. When 1975 came and went, Fred Franz went on stage at an assembly and said /asked the audience "do you know why nothing happened in 1975? " its "because you expected something to happen"! he blamed the JWS for it!
add to that ,that it wasnt for another 4 years until the sociey apologized for it... FOUR YEARS ! and THAT was only cuz of all the backlash .
Debator is talking out his / her / its ars3h*13 again !
Very well put Essan.
