TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

by UnDisfellowshipped 457 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  leavingwt

  Podo:

  Thank you for those details. I'm glad you escaped from WT.

  How would you respond to these two questions, if they were put to you by an outside observer, such as a practicing Hindu from India?

  (1) If the Trinity is false, why do most self-described Christians believe it?

  (2) Why does your faith hold the issue as a litmus test, but most self-described Christians do not?

  (3) Do you feel very grateful that you came to be in association with true Christians, given that the odds are very much so against you?
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  peacedog

  "Deflection"? Podobear, seriously, chill out. I said I'd speak to Ps 110:1 after debator responds to my post. Secondly, why do you continue to ask me to defend the trinity? Did you read my last post? Do you have a problem with reading comprehension?

  I have missed the point? My friend, NOTHING that you posted changes the fact that according to scripture YHWH was ALONE and BY HIMSELF during creation, and yet Jesus created all things. I have not missed your point; you have missed the target.

  If you are in the mood for discussion, please explain your views on the nature of Jesus Christ (given that Hebrews 1:5 and 1:13 eliminate the possibility of his being an angel) while we wait for debator to answer my post.

  Peace.
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  designs

  Ringing Bells to call the faithful to worship, swinging an incense burner, receiving communion from a priest, marching crucifixes up and down the aisle, praying to some non-jewish looking guy nailed to a cross, liturgical vestments, kneeling-sitting-bowing-kneeling-sitting-bowing.

  So exactly how is this an improvement.
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  reslight2

  I am not with the JWs, and I seldom would use the New World Translation.

  The claim is that there is one true God by nature, which is true.

  The Greek word in the Bible for God is usually transliterated as THEOS (or QEOS). It translated from forms of the Old Testament Hebrew word EL, which basically means "might, strength, power."

  Jesus identified the "one true God", that is the one true MIGHT, as his God and Father. -- John 17:1,3.

  Nowhere in the Bible is Jesus indentified as the one true MIGHT. There is no might anywhere that is aside from Yahweh (Isaiah 44:6), the God and Father of Jesus. The scriptures reveal that Jesus was sent by the one true Might; that Jesus worships the one true Might, that Jesus speaks the words of the one true Might, etc., but the scriptures never reveal Jesus as being that one true might. -- ( Deuteronomy 18:15-19 ; Matthew 4:4 [ Deuteronomy 8:3 ; Luke 4:4 ]; Matthew 4:7 [ Deuteronomy 6:16 ]; Matthew 4:10 [ Exodus 20:3-5 ; 34:14 ; Deuteronomy 6:13 , 14 ; 10:20 ; Luke 4:8 ]; Matthew 22:29-40 ; Matthew 26:42 ; Matthew 27:46 ; Mark 10:6 [ Genesis 1:27 ; Genesis 2:7 , 20-23 ]; Mark 14:36 ; 15:34 ; Luke 22:42 ; John 4:3 ; 5:30 ; 6:38 ; 17:1 , 3 ; 20:17 ; Romans 15:6 ; 2 Corinthians 1:3 ; 11:31 ; Ephesians 1:3 , 17 ; Hebrews 1:9 ; 10:7 ; 1 Peter 1:3 ; Revelation 2:7 ; 3:2 , 12 )

  Even Jesus receives his might from the one true MIGHT, so that forms of the word EL and forms of the word THEOS may be used of him. The angels receive their might from the one true might, so that forms of the word EL and forms of the word THEOS may be used of them, and men are often given special mightiness from the one true might, such as Moses, the judges of Isreal, the sons of God. Thus forms of the word EL and forms of the word Theos may be used of these also, but and although their might is true might, it does not make them the one true might that Jesus spoke of. As Jesus said, they are declared gods by Yahweh, but they are not the one true might. Their might is real, and in that sense it is true, but it does not make them the one true might from whom they have received their might.

  Jesus Receives His Power and Authority From The One Who Sent Him

  The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, by means of his holy spirit, reveals through the scriptures that Jesus receives his inheritance and dominion (power) from Yahweh. His power and authority is given to him by his God, his unipersonal Supreme Being. Jesus is not Yahweh [his unipersonal God and Father] who gives him this dominion, all authority and power (with the evident exception of the position of being the Most High himself — 1 Corinthians 15:27 ), yet the exercise of this power and authority by Jesus is all to the praise of Yahweh, the unipersonal God and Father of the Lord Jesus. The Bible writers never claimed that Jesus is the ultimate “source” of his own power. — Psalm 2:6-8 ; 45:7 ; 110:1 , 2 ; Isaiah 9:6 , 7 ; 11:2 ; 42:1 ; 61:1-3 ; Jeremiah 23:5 ; Daniel 7:13 , 14 ; Matthew 12:28 ; 28:18 ; Luke 1:32 ; 4:14 , 18 ; 5:17 ; John 3:34 ; 5:19 , 27 , 30 ; 10:18 , 36-38 ; Acts 2:22 ; 10:38 ; Romans 1:1-4 ; 1 Corinthians 15:27 ; 2 Corinthians 13:4 ; Colossians 1:15 , 16 ; 2:10 ; Ephesians 1:17-22 ; Philippians 2:9-11 ; Hebrews 1:2 , 4 , 6 , 9 ; 1 Peter 3:22 .

  Thus, it is by nature of being the source of all might that there is only one Most High, and Jesus is never identified as that one Most High, but as the son of the one Most High. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, by means of his holy spirit, reveals through the scriptures that Jesus is son of the unipersonal Most High, Yahweh. Jesus is never spoken of as the “Most High”; he is not the only Most High Yahweh of whom he is the son. — Genesis 14:22 ; Psalm 7:17 ; 83:18 ; 92:1 ; Luke 1:32 ; John 13:16 .

  Those who believe that Jesus is the Most High have to used the great spirit of human imagination so to come up with assumptions, and which assumption that add to, and read into the scriptures.

  John 1:1,2 tells us that the Word was with the Might, and the Word was mighty. This does not mean that the Word was the Might whom he was with.

  See my studies related to John 1:1:

  http://godandson.reslight.net/archives/tag/john-11

  The Word is Jesus, and Jesus identified the One whom he was with before the world of mankind was a made as his Father, whom he further identified as the one true Might. (John 17:1,3,5) Thus, Jesus, being sent by that one true Might, is not that one true Might who sent him.

  See: "Did Jesus Really Say That His Father is the Only True God?
  http://godandson.reslight.net/archives/440.html
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  FlyingHighNow

  Ringing Bells to call the faithful to worship, swinging an incense burner, receiving communion from a priest, marching crucifixes up and down the aisle, praying to some non-jewish looking guy nailed to a cross, liturgical vestments, kneeling-sitting-bowing-kneeling-sitting-bowing.

  So exactly how is this an improvement.

  Those things you mention? To start, they are beautiful. They are also comforting. The vestments? Do you know the origin of them and why they look as they do? An improvement over what? You don't enjoy these things? Doesn't make them any less relevant or valuable. I don't think anyone has all the answers. I am very comfortable with not needing to know all the answers. JW's think you need to know all the answers, it's a big pitfall with them. Their undoing really. Non-Jewish looking Jesus? First, all depictions of Jesus do not alike.

  

  Second of all, according to scripture, Jesus was only half Jewish. Jewish people have varied colored eyes and hair. Here is what some very famous Jewish and Half Jewish people look like:
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  Podobear

  I am quite happy to follow a logical discussion Peacedog.... I am pretty chilled on the subject, having spent months on a similar forum and finding myself with a JW and another poster researching the subject to exhaustion. Not one Trinitarian supporter would dissect the text of Psalm 110:1. This text and many associated to it, as Snowbird, has posted is central to our understanding of THE LORD (KJV) and my lord (KJV).

  One of the lead arguments of the Author of this thread is that Jesus is the Jehovah of the OT. Check back to your post and my entrance and your challenge to Debator.. and you will find your Parenthesis implies that you agree that Jesus is Jehovah. Or, have I misunderstood your gauntlet to Debator? Trinitarianism has many schools of thought... it has produced the greatest splits in the theology of the Christian movement. It is a smoke string to challenge the Universal Sovereignty of YHWH, the God of Our Lord and Master, Jesus Christ.

  Leavingwt:

  1) How would I approach a Hindu on the subject? I think I would lay a neutral ground for the thinking individual.. and look at the Three faced gods of Hinduism.. and take them back to the banks of the River Nile.

  (I really recommend you fly to Luxor and take the trip along the Upper Nile with a reputable Travel company (Kuoni were brillian) and a good guide - it adjusted a lot of my own preconceptions about the origins of many of the great Religions)

  The culture along the Ganges probably developed from the worship of the Cow as one of the "gods" of Egypt. I would love to travel to Lower Egypt and Cairo with the purpose of following the trail to the Indus Valley. It would make a trip to India fascinating.

  Having established that the thought processes of many cultures originated in Egypt, I would then follow the uniqueness of the Jews who carried their ONE God in a box, an Ark, out of Egypt. Immersed and surrounded by Chaldean/Egyptian/Babylonian mysticism, the Jews sought to preserve the purity of the One God ho 'Theos, Jehovah.

  2) The litmus test for me, is the personal relationship I have with ho 'Theos. Embrassing the Universal Purpose of life and hope, in my case through an accurate knowledge of my Lord Jesus, is central to that relationship. Anything that detracts from recognising ho 'Theos, Jehovah as Almighty Sovereign is a challenge by rebels to destroy our Oneness with that Supreme Being.

  3) I have met True Christians, attending many churches or none at all. They are broadly, what I would describe as Beroean Christians. I once believed that the WTBTS sole purpose was to gather those "sheep" into one flock. The doctrine I accepted at baptism, and even the baptism vows themselves, have been altered and distorted so badly.. that I can no longer accept the man-made efforts of the WT as Total Truth.

  Noone is alive from the First Century to confirm the meaning of much of what was said, and each Christian subdivision claims that its interpretation is the right one.

  The words of a song at the KH echo through my mind: "To whom do you belong... which God will you obey..." every bond fide JW/exJw/fencesitter will relate to that comment.

  Recently, I participated in an animated online discussion over the Iraq war with a very lively group. It got really passionate until a member, a guy from the SDA group chipped in.. "I believe that God's sheep graize on many Hills..." , the board was instantly calmed. He said it all.

  I guess that is my position to.. but I will rise to defend the obvious.. and look for the unity of thought and harmony in everything I discuss. The Beroeans have it in my book. Hope that addresses your thoughts.

  Podo
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  leavingwt

  Podo: Thank you for your extended comments.
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  snowbird

  Although I'm not a Trinitarian, I do believe that Jesus of Nazareth is Jehovah of the Old Testament.

  John 8:58 clinched it for me.

  Peace to all.

  Syl
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  Kenneson

  Podobear,

  As I see it, all 7 quotations from the Old Testament in Hebrews 1 are applied to the Son to show His superiority over angels, that He is worshiped by angels and that, though he is God, he is distinguished from the Father. Both verses 6 and 10 which were originally addressed to Yahweh are here applied to the Son. Verse 14 concludes by showing that Jesus reigns, while angels minister as those sent to serve.
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  Podobear

  I cannot see how you draw that conclusion Kenneson, but since I have made sufficient contribution here, and reslight2 has already posted plenty of research to refute your conclusion, I will wait respectfully to see if anyone who claims that Jesus is the same as the Jehovah of the Old Testament can explain the words of Psalm 110:1.

  The same is happening here as happened the last time I entered into research on a board like this... Please justify your statement and explain the Psalmists words for me... "The LORD said unto my lord, sit at my right...." Who are they,?... please

  Podo