TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

by UnDisfellowshipped 457 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • UnDisfellowshipped


    If there is a God, and if He has given us an Inspired Book to live by and to know Him through, then wouldn't it be the most reasonable thing to do to attempt to follow and obey God's instructions?

    That is what it all boils down to. Pleasing God.

    If your research and studies have pointed you away from God and the Bible or the Trinity, then you are free to believe as you wish.

    However, other people's research and studies have pointed them toward God and the Bible, and toward the Trinity.

    And some people's research and studies have caused them to conclude that God will not save you unless you put your trust in the True Jesus, the One who is God and Man, who died for your sins on the Cross.

    So, you see, the Deity of Christ and Trinity are very important to a lot of people, including myself, because if you have the wrong Jesus, you are going to have the wrong Jesus for all of eternity.

  • designs

    Which Jesus is the question, one invented by the early Bishops who silenced by intimidation and murder any who opposed them. Not me.

    If as a Witness we concluded our religion was wrong because of fabricated ideas and Leaders who were guidable by personal revelation what could you possibly defend with the cruel Leadership of Western Christianity and its concocted metaphysical philosophy. Was Henry VIII a leader you would follow or a Pope or Benny Hinn (Stephen's Fav). Duplicious in the extreme.

    The end of being afraid was a milestone for many of us, but to some xJWs they have gone from Armageddon to Hell. That's a return to the Dark Ages and superstition.

    Now here's the thought for next Sunday when you are sitting in your Churches, look at the figure on the Cross or the picture of the man they call Jesus in your Hymn book or literature and Bibles, does he look anything like a Jew.

    Caravaggio and Da Vinci and Michelangelo. Do you think Western Christianity got it just a little wrong. Remember the Hollywood hunk the Society draws in their literature. One of the last Book Studies I attended I raised the issue, did Jesus look more like a Hollywood star or Bob Dylan, you should have heard the howls.

    Which Jesus, the Trinity misses by a mile.

  • BANE

    I think these pretty much defeat the Trinity. I didn´t even have to scripturize today. A person of the world said it better than I could.

  • djeggnog


    TRINITY Challenge using ONLY the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures -- Let us debate and reason on the Scriptures about whether God Almighty is a Trinity, or is only One Person.

    I have read many of the threads in which you either started or in which you were an active participant, @Undisfellowshipped, but I'm pretty sure that you are not able to discuss your faith in Trinity, let alone debate it reasonably with others (you wrote "debate and reason"), so I'm just going to do my best here to help you to focus on your own topic, assuming this is something that you believe you are prepared to do. Anything extraneous that you decide to inject into this discussion will not be given any consideration and such will be unceremoniously "shown the door," as it were, since these discussions about the Trinity do tend to go off the proverbial rails, and I, like the man, Jehonadad (about whom I'm sure folks that have read the Bible and do not just make John 1:1, John 8:58 and John 20:28 their "gospel" and whole reason for living), do not tolerate any rivalry toward Jehovah. I suppose it's just a character defect, so I've learned to live with it.

    On another thread, BANE said that we know for a fact immediately that nearly all religions other than Jehovah's Witnesses are FALSE because almost all of them believe in the Trinity. And BANE claims he can "Out-Scripturize" anyone with the help of Jehovah. So here is his chance.

    Were someone to issue to them such a taunt, I can appreciate how one might be a bit reluctant to step into the fray and ruckus that typically accompanies such "anything goes" discussions had about the Trinity. If I happen to someone that believes the things the Bible says to have been written to Jehovah's Witnesses that they might survive the coming day of judgment, then it is a reasonable conclusion to draw that I must also be of the belief that all other religions, whether they be of the "Christian" variety or any of the non-Christian and atheist "faiths," are false, regardless of whether any one of these Christian or non-Christian faiths should believe the Trinity to have some merit or believe Elvis is still alive. Now I don't know Bane and have only read some of the messages that he has posted to this forum, and while he strikes me as being someone that is full of faith, he also comes off as someone that enjoys patting himself on the back for the things of the spirit that he has come to learn as if he did not receive what things he knows from someone else. (1 Corinthians 4:7)

    So, I challenged BANE to a debate on the Trinity using only the New World Translation. He has yet to respond. So I am now issuing that challenge to him and ANYONE else who would accept.

    All I ask is that you do your best to stay focused, for I will withdraw from this discussion (or debate) if you should introduce arguments that have nothing at all to do with proving the Trinity to be a Bible-based doctrine using the New World Translation of the Holy Scripture.

    But BEFORE you start debating, PLEASE look at the following list which EXPLAINS exactly what I mean when I say TRINITY:

    The historical Trinity Doctrine of the Christian (Protestant and Catholic) churches has always been this:

    [1] There is only One True God by Nature.

    [2] There are Three Distinct Persons who share equally the Nature of God.

    [3] There are NOT three different GODS (that is the false doctrine of Tritheism or Polytheism).

    [4] There is NOT one PERSON who is revealed three different ways (that is the false doctrine of Modalism).

    [5] However, each Person of the Trinity does have His own "role" or "function." The Son willingly obeys the Father. The Spirit willingly obeys the Father and the Son. (This is known as "Functional Subordinationism")

    [6] Each of the Three Persons is called "Jehovah" (or "Yahweh") and "God" in the Bible.

    [7] The Father, Son, and Spirit are EQUAL in Nature, Essence, Attributes, Qualities, Power, Knowledge, etc.

    [8] The Father, Son, and Spirit deserve EQUAL worship and praise and prayer from Christians.

    Why does it matter that the Protestant and Catholic churches teach the Trinity doctrine? There are non-denominational churches that teach that embrace the teaching on the Trinity, too, churches like yourself, for example, since I did read one of your messages in this thread in which you indicated that you do not promote any "church or religious group," so why bring this up when it is enough that you and your church of one is out here in the world defending the Trinity?

    Anyway, I numbered each of the eight (8) items you mentioned above so that we can focus on just these items as you go on to prove each one of them using the NWT Bible. Note that excluded from your list are the following items which are unacceptable in a discussion of the Trinity where the discussion centers around the three Persons said to be one God, for there is nothing at all "three-ish" in any of the following six (6) items that had been included in your post:

    * Jesus IS Jehovah, but He is NOT The Father or The Spirit.

    * The Son is the One who died on the Cross, NOT The Father or The Spirit.

    * The Father is the One who sent The Son into the world. (Jesus did NOT send Himself)

    * The Son was praying to The Father. (Jesus was NOT praying to Himself)

    * While Jesus was on earth (and even after He returned to heaven), The Father had a greater position or rank of authority within the Godhead.

    * The Son took on flesh, and became 100% Human in addition to being 100% God. That is why He had certain human limitations while He was on earth.

    I don't say that you cannot or even should not believe any of these things in your list that are excluded, for you are certainly free to believe whatever it is you wish to believe, even as I also have such freedom, but you don't get to "stack the deck" by tossing into this discussion things that are totally irrelevant to it.

    Let me be the first to apologize on behalf of all Trinitarians for the behavior and actions of those who have treated you wrongly. Also, I do want to make it clear to everyone that I am NOT promoting ANY church or religious group. I only want people to study in the Scriptures and THINK for themselves just like the Beroeans did at Acts 17:11.

    Why do you feel the need to be among the first "to apologize on behalf of all Trinitarians" for anyone's behavior and actions? This is a forum and if others should get upset with anything at all that they read here on this board, then they should not be here, and they can remedy the problem by turning off their computers (which is an extreme!), or by visiting a website like Yahoo! for entertainment, for this web site is not a Kingdom Hall, not a church and it isn't some revolutionary substitute for a place of worship. This forum is like a coffee shop where people might talk about anything, e.g., the Bible, politics, sports, what have you. Some folks come to websites like this to win Bible-related arguments; others come due to their having a bit of curiosity.

    Now if Bane thinks that he can be a participant on a website like this one and report the time he spends on them, maybe he'll read this post and come to realize that coming to this website does not constitute sacred service, does not involve direct worship to God, and therefore cannot be counted or reported as if what things Jehovah's Witnesses should decide to do for entertainment, like spending the day at an amusement park with their family is somehow the same as our rendering direct worship to God; whatever it is we do for entertainment is not sacred service. Being part of a group assigned to clean up the Kingdom Hall or to provide services at a convention of Jehovah's Witnesses would both be sacred service, direct worship to God, but Jehovah's Witnesses cannot report such time spent in carrying out what assignments they might receive to the best of their respective abilities.

    Why do you care that folks are making a "study in the Scriptures" and that they are thinking for themselves if you are not, as you say, here promoting either a church or a religious group? Do you think that encouraging others to take up a study of the Scriptures, as you are doing, isn't the same as your promoting a sect? When you say this, are you not also speaking to the atheists among us here? Why should they be interested in joining your sect when most atheists do tend to think for themselves, and typically they don't profess believe in a god, in any god (let alone a "Trinity" God!), which is kind of why these folks often refer to themselves as atheists?

    If you actually study the Bible and you truly do not believe that the Trinity is taught in the Scriptures, then you should not believe it.


    If you truly believe that the Bible teaches Unitarianism, then you should believe that.

    Please explain why someone that doesn't believe that the Trinity doctrine has scriptural support should not believe in Unitarianism? I don't follow your logic here, considering that Trinitarianism is not the same as Unitarianism, and unless you are claiming that Unitarianism is the very antithesis of belief in the Trinity -- which I don't believe you are saying here -- then it makes no real sense for you to have said this.

    And I agree that everyone should be open to hearing arguments from the other side, and should be open to discussing the Scriptures and different interpretations of them.

    I'm open to hearing your arguments for Trinitarianism, but what is this "other side"? I'm willing to discuss and listen to your interpretation of the Bible texts in the NWT that you claim provide support for the Trinity doctrine, but why should others be open to listening to your arguments or to discussing the Scriptures and your take on what they mean?

    With that being said, when it comes to belief in the Deity of Christ that is a very serious important belief necessary for salvation (according to most churches), so yes you are going to meet a lot of people who will not accept Unitarian beliefs because then they would be at risk of going to Hell for eternity.

    So what does any of this have to do with this topic, this discussion? Forget all of that and let's just focus on this topic that you started here as we "reason on the Scriptures about whether God Almighty is a Trinity, or is only One Person." Ok, @Undisfellowshipped, your turn.

  • FlyingHighNow
    Universalism is one of the better ideas they adopted. Episcopalians are not in the same class as the Fundamentalists but its still cultish since they hold to Anglican Doctrine of 1799.
    XJWs who bounce from the Watchtower to another Religious Group just can't get detached from a Religion mindset.

    I was raised in the Episcopal Church. And we are not the only people to embrace Universalism. There are Universalists in most Christian denominations as well as the Muslim, Jewish, Eastern philosophies, etc. and on and on. Unitarians are basically universalists.

    Do you even know what a cult is? I didn't think so.

  • garyneal

    I got to give designs credit this time in that he did not come on his usual hit and run proclaiming all believers to be cultists with his statement, "Out of one cult, into another." He also raises some good points. One of them being that Jesus is a Jew and none of the pictures that most churches use to depict Him even hint at this.

    Since we are on this topic, perhaps some of you can help me out with this verse.

    John 8:24 (NASB): "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

    What does Jesus mean when He says, "for unless you believe that I am He?" On the one hand, I take it to mean that unless we believe that he is God or the I Am and some other translations make this more explicit. However, a part of me wonders if Jesus is really saying that unless we believe the He is the Messiah for isn't this what the Jews were looking for?

  • Podobear

    "Jehovah saith unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, Until I make thine enemies thy footstool." American Standard Version Psalm 110:1

    No matter how I try undisfellowshipped, I cannot fit most of your definition of the Trinity into this scripture. David recognised a simple Father & Son relationship.

    There are about a dozen well known Scriptures that "Trinitarians" have tinkered with to justify their theology the most notorious is the Johannine Comma. To me this is Semantics, like Evolution.. if you believe it emerged from the big bang theory with chance producing what we see today.. that takes more "faith" than simply accepting that Evolution is simply Adaptation of the Species, borne from a wise and purposeful Creator.

    Similarly, Jesus takes on the attributes of his Father and sometimes the functions too.. but he is a "creation" both in a heavenly and earthly sense. So, No, he is NOT Jehovah.

    The burden of proof rests with you, if you wish to rise to the challeng.

    I await your explanation of Psalm 110:1... in its fullness please.


  • John1one

    "The Hebrew for ‘gods’ (‘elohîm) could refer to various exalted beings besides Yahweh [or, Jehovah], without implying any challenge to monotheism,…"

    Taken from: Blomberg, Craig L. (b.?-d.?). "The Historical Reliability of John’s Gospel: Issues & Commentary." (Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press, c2002), "The feast of Dedication" ([John] 10:22-42), p. 163. BS2615.6.H55 B56 2002 / 2001051563.

    Agape, JohnOneOne.

  • Chalam

    garyneal Since we are on this topic, perhaps some of you can help me out with this verse.

    [17] In your Law it is written that the testimony of two people is true. [18] I am the one who bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me.” [19] They said to him therefore, “Where is your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also.” [20] These words he spoke in the treasury, as he taught in the temple; but no one arrested him, because his hour had not yet come.

    [21] So he said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek me, and you will die in your sin. Where I am going, you cannot come.” [22] So the Jews said, “Will he kill himself, since he says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come’?” [23] He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. [24] I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

    (John 8:17-24 ESV)

    Jesus has just been talking about the Father. Unless one believes that Jesus is one with the Father, i.e. that Jesus is God and not a god "you will die in your sins."



  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep


    Do yourself a favour.

    When/if you ever get to get a word in edgeways with a JW, don't hit them with a barage.

    Just ask ONE of the questions. The best one for them, or you, whichever, and keep them honest and on topic. One carefully posed question on one topic and do it thoroughly.

    I hope that helps


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