TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

by UnDisfellowshipped 457 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • djeggnog


    What does Jesus mean when He says, "for unless you believe that I am He?"

    The controversy surrounding the Lord Jesus Christ is whether he was, in fact, the "Son of man" (notice that Jesus uses "Son of man" at John 8:28 and "Son" at John 8:36, both referring to his title at Daniel 7:13) that is to say, the promised Messiah, or "Christ," that the Jews had been expecting, "the prophet that was to come" (John 6:14, 7:26). You should also notice that in this same verse -- John 8:24 (from which you have quoted) -- and at John 8:28, the Greek words _egó eimí_ are rendered in both verses as "I am he," while at John 8:58, the same Greek words are rendered as just "I am," without the addition of the word "he," evidently for theological reasons to make it appear that Jesus uses the title, "I AM" at Exodus 3:14.

    Many of the folks that make this theological argument do not know that the Greek Septuagint doesn't use the words "_egó eimí_" at all, but instead renders this specific portion of Exodus 3:14 as _ho On_, which means "The Being" or "The One who is," and _ho On_ ("the One") is applied to Jehovah at Revelation 1:8 and at Revelation 11:17.

    Of course, there are some folks that do know this, but they have an agenda. When you get to John 8:56, Jesus is still making the point that he is the Messiah, for he says there that Abraham's faith led him to rejoice in the prospect of the arrival of the promised Seed, the Messiah, for at Genesis 22:18, we read God's promise to Abraham that it would be "by means of [Abraham's] seed" that all nations of the earth would bless themselves, Jesus also indicated at John 8:58 that he had been in a position to have observed Abraham's faith in action since in Jesus' prehuman existence, before Abraham had not even been born, Jesus had existed.


    Similarly, Jesus takes on the attributes of his Father and sometimes the functions too.. but he is a "creation" both in a heavenly and earthly sense. So, No, he is NOT Jehovah.

    Adding to what you have said here, Jesus is referred to at Revelation 3:14 as being "the beginning of the creation by God," so not only is Jesus God's firstborn, but he is God's first creation, who the apostle Paul states, at Hebrews 10:12, 13, had been biding his time sitting at God's right hand "until [when] his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet" (Psalm 110:1).

    However, it is when the end of the "appointed times of the nations" (Luke 21:24) had arrived that God "again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth" (Hebrews 1:6) to rule "in the midst of your enemies" (Psalm 110:2) during his invisible presence after having girded on power in his having dealt a blow to his heavenly enemies in 1914 when Jesus began ruling as king (Revelation 12:7-12), and having received an anointing from God as a prophet, as high priest, and in his kingship.

    Paul distinguishes Jesus from the rest of God's angels, for Jesus is the only one of the angels to whom God refers as "my son," underscoring the fact that Jesus' anointing was "more than [had any of Jesus'] partners" received from God, their anointing having only been as a king (Hebrews 1:5-9).

  • cantleave

    This is a really interesting thread and has educated me greatly. TY.

  • streets76

    Go to any reputable liberal arts college. Sign up for Freshman Philosopy 101 and buy the textbook. Look up the "Philosophy of Religion" section in the textbook. Read the chapter about "The Problem of Suffering and Evil."


    (And while you're there, I'd also recommend a science class or two.)

  • designs


    Most Protestant churches are moving towards being a social club, kind of an Adult Boys & Girls Club, with trappings to the older traditions. In your parish do they still use Anointing Oil, Bells, Candles, Procession of the Crucifix, Images, Incense Burners, Vestments, do you Sit Kneel and Bow with calls to prayer.

    Since you were raised as an Episcopalian why are you here on a XJW website, did you have family or friends who were JWs.

  • debator

    John 17:1-3 (New International Version)

    1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father,......that they may know you, the ONLY true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 1 Corinthians 15:27
    For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. Trinity is just trying to make people believe in Oxymorons. 3 never equals 1! I agree with Bane, trinity is too easily disproved and not worth debating.

  • designs

    The Trinity is simple really. Just study the metaphysical musings of Plato, Democritus, and Socrates as they played with understanding essence and substance and the early ideas of the primary building blocks in nature. The early Greek Bishops simply piggybacked several philosophies in putting the finishing touches on their new religion.

    Now Seminaries keep trying the old canard of historical revisionism...the Jews were closet Trinitarians, that always get the look from the Jewish community.

  • Kenneson


    How could Rev. 3:14 be referring to the beginning of Jesus, rather than Jesus being the one who began creation and is ruler over it? Jesus was never a part of the creation He created. Jesus was never a part of what He made. All things were made by Jesus, but He was not one of those things! "All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence." John 1:3 Jesus "...sustains all things by the word of his power..." Heb. 1:2,3 Jesus is not a thing of creation, never was and never will be.

  • designs

    But what if he was...11Q13, are you holding onto your crucifix for dear life.

    'What if god were one of us, just a stranger on a bus...................

  • Kenneson


    Your use of 1 Cor. 15:27 does not apply to Trinitarians. We do not claim that the Father is subject to the Son. Never have. And as to the Father being the only true God does not make Jesus not true and not God. Jesus is the "Way, the Truth, and the Life." John 14:6 Can someone become truer than THE TRUTH? You doctrine seems to imply that Jesus was or could have been false. He never was and never will be.

  • Podobear

    Jesus is the Son of God... hundreds of scriptures tell us that... cite just ONE that uses the expression GOD THE SON. You argue semantics Kenneson. Jesus is the means by which all other creation came into existence.

    He was rewarded with Immortality at the right hand of God according to Scripture. Before that he was Mortal, both in heaven and on earth, he could have rebelled, but he poured out his life for us ... died and was resurrected 3 days later. The Angel known as Satan and his rebels are also Mortal.. not Immortal.. they depend on Almighty God as the source of life. Jesus is now IMMORTAL.. his reward for his faithfulness. His life, his pain and his sacrifice, mean nothing if he was Almighty God himself.

    The trinity does not make sense, and as I said there are about a dozen scriptures which could be ambiguous.. and then there is the blatant KJV corruption of 1 John 5:7.. otherwise known as the Johannine coma. Such blasphemy on the part of the priests of the courts of King James!


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