TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

by UnDisfellowshipped 457 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Deputy Dog

  In your parish do they still use Anointing Oil, Bells, Candles, Procession of the Crucifix, Images, Incense Burners, Vestments, do you Sit Kneel and Bow with calls to prayer.

  The Trinity is simple really. Just study the metaphysical musings of Plato, Democritus, and Socrates as they played with understanding essence and substance and the early ideas of the primary building blocks in nature. The early Greek Bishops simply piggybacked several philosophies in putting the finishing touches on their new religion.

  But what if he was...11Q13, are you holding onto your crucifix for dear life.

  'What if god were one of us, just a stranger on a bus...................

  Blah blah blah...

  Just more JW speak.
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  debator

  Kenneson

  Who was Jesus's true Father? God or Joseph and if it is God, was Joseph a false Father to Jesus? then were the genealogies of Joseph a lie because he is Jesus's false father according to you?

  We have "True north" does that make all the other norths false?

  Bible often uses words in the superlative sense you are ignoring this.

  hense why Jehovah is refered to as the "God of gods" and in fact Paul explains this plainly.

  1 Corinthians 8:5-6 (New American Standard Bible)

  5 For even if (A) there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,

  6 yet for us (B) there is but one God, (C) the Father, (D) from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and (E) one Lord, Jesus Christ, (F) by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

  The clincher is at the end Paul makes it clear "FOR US (CHRISTIANS) there is but one God, the father." all the others while gods or lords or so-called ones they are not our "one true God and father Jehovah.

  It is funny to see trinitarians jump through hoops to deny the obvious and bible written. Replacing it with the obscure and read-into scripture. Often as in this case resorting to saying the scripture is not saying saying what it obviously is.
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  peacedog

  It is funny to see trinitarians jump through hoops to deny the obvious and bible written.

  Lol, debator.... Absolutely hilarious to see this statement coming from a JW...

  What a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black.

  Isaiah 44:24:This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser and the former of you from the belly: "I, Jehovah, am doing everything, stretching out the heavens by myself, laying out the earth. Who was with me? (NWT)

  "BY MYSELF"

  "WHO WAS WITH ME"

  The NIV has it: "...who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself"

  "ALONE"

  "BY MYSELF"

  But wait!

  John 1:3 says: Through him [Jesus] all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

  Now how can this be? The bible clearly states that Jehovah "ALONE" did everything; he created the heavens and the earth BY HIMSELF. WHO WAS WITH HIM?

  Hmm... Maybe Psalm 102:25 and Hebrews 1:10 will clarify your position....

  Ps 102:25: Long ago you [Jehovah] laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are the work of your hands.

  Heb 1:10: In the beginning, O Lord, you [Jesus] laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.

  Let's recap: "Jehovah" created the heavens and the earth ALONE and BY HIMSELF. Jesus created all things. Jehovah laid the foundations of the earth (ALONE, BY HIMSELF); Jesus laid the foundations of the earth. The heavens are the work of Jehovah's hands (ALONE, BY HIMSELF); the heavens are the work of Jesus' hands.

  Did you say something about 'believing in oxymorons', debator?

  Start jumping through your hoops debator.....
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  Podobear

  So, please explain the meaning of Psalm 110:1 peacedog: Every Trinitarian debating this issue has always avoided explaining this Scripture. Will one of you please enlighten me? Thank you.
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  peacedog

  Podobear, I'm surprised to hear that. Thanks for asking and I'd be happy to discuss the verse with you (as I'm sure many others on the board would),

  However, I'll first wait for debator to explain to me how "Jehovah" created all things "ALONE" and "BY HIMSELF" while at the same time Jesus created all things. I know he'll do this without "resorting to saying the scripture is not saying saying [sic] what it obviously is" - because he condemns "trinitarians" for doing this very thing. And he would not want to be revealed as a hypocrite.
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  Podobear

  Hebrews 1:10: You have given just one example of Scriptural passages that Trinitarians twist to suit their unstable reasoning, peacedog.

  Paul quotes here from Psalm 102:25,26 and its contextual application to YHWH. The Hebrew readers are not Trinitarians but SEVERE monotheistic Jews. Nothing in these verses would have prepared a Hebrew reader for the extraordinary idea that the Son was in fact THE GOD, or that Jesus was the YHWH of the Hebrew Scriptures.

  It is completely illogical the writer would suddenly assert such a thing without adequate preparation to Biblically-aware Monotheistic Jews.

  Go back in your reading to verse 7: there are three types here, Angels, The Son, and THE LORD (YHWH) (Hence my request that you explain Psalm 110:1). Those who had been following the writer would have no reason to assume that the Lord of Psalm 102 was the Son himself. It would be obvious to any Jewish reader that this "LORD" is the Creator YHWH himself.

  The previous quotation had proven that the Messiah (The Anointed One) was exalted only over his "partners" (companions), NOT GOD. Indeed the Son has his own "God." This could never be said of "ho THEOS" The God, for He has no God himself. (Deuteronomy 10:17)

  It goes without saying that a Jewish reader, reading without explanatory explanation, would have no difficulty in understanding that with the breat "and" in verse 10, the subject has moved to YHWH, Jehovah as Psalm 102 has it.

  Typical of Trinitarian translators, some have added phrases to "and" indicating the "Son" of verse 8 is in fact YHWH of Psalm 102. The Greek does not allow for this!! Such a translation must be considered a Trinitarian paraphrase ignoring the context.

  So, rather than bait Debator, Peacedog... research the dishonesty of the Trinitarian translator and put the Scriptures into the context and mind of the original reader.

  You will be amazed how warped some translators are. The worst example is 1 John 5:7.. look it up in Wikepedia.

  The Trinity is a Chaldean/Babylonian heresy introduced by corrupt priests and endorsed by a Pagan convert Constantine into church doctrine at the Confernce of Nicea in 325. It has no place in Judeo-Christian theology.

  Fancy doing back flips through your own hoops now, Peacedog???

  Podo
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  peacedog

  Podobear,

  First of all, I never called myself a "trinitarian" nor did I say I support or believe the doctrine of the trinity.

  You said: "Paul quotes here from Psalm 102:25,26 and its contextual application to YHWH. The Hebrew readers are not Trinitarians but SEVERE monotheistic Jews."

  You assert the Hebrew readers were not "trinitarians". Be that as it may, the writer of Hebrews took a verse that was written of YHWH and applied it directly to Jesus. In fact, he implied that the verse as written in Psalms (which was clearly in reference to YHWH) was actually a reference to Jesus. Now why would he do such a thing? To the objective reader, this in and of itself is indication of the (biblical) deity of Jesus. Of course, we can go even one step further and consider the verses in Isaiah which clearly state that YHWH was "ALONE" during creation and that he created all things "BY HIMSELF".

  You said "Go back in your reading to verse 7: there are three types here, Angels, The Son, and THE LORD". This is actually not true, for I don't see a reference to "THE LORD" anywhere in the first chapter of Hebrews. What I see specifically in verse 7 is an argument against Jesus being an angel (a belief which is held by the JWs, btw...).

  Podobear, go back to verse 5 in your reading:

  For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father"? Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son"

  Here the question is rhetorically asked, "to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father".

  Verse 13 poses another rhetorical question:

  To which of the angels did God ever say, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"

  So here is yet another conundrum for the JWs: God never said "You are my Son; today I have become your Father" to any angel; He never said "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet" to any angel. Yet we know He said both these things to Jesus. Logically, then, Jesus is not an angel. Another JW doctrine goes belly up, and more importantly, you're running out of options when it comes to explaining the nature of Jesus.

  Peace.
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  leavingwt

  Podobear: May I ask a question or two? Do you regard belief in the Trinity as a litmus test of sorts? Is it important to reject it?
• 

  snowbird

  Psalm of David.

  110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

  110:2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. KJV

  Matthew 22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 22:42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. 22:43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 22:45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? 22:46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions. KJV

  Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. KJV

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  David was looking ahead to and prophetically speaking of Messiah's glorification. Messiah was both the LORD (Creator) and Lord (Master) and Son (human descendant) of David.

  This cannot be used to prove or disprove the Trinity; no, I'm not a Trinitarian.

  Syl
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  Podobear

  Absolutely Syl: Thank you. Peacedog has missed the point entirely.

  You should include in your research: De Trinitas Erroribus dedicated to Michael Servetus 1511-1533. There are about one dozen texts that Trinitarians relish and abuse in the TRANSLITERATION from Greek to English, notably from the text of the Greek Septuagint.

  I have commended the research of just one example of the dozen to you Peacedog. Now, please, without anymore deflection would you please explain to us your understanding of Psalm110:1... this is crystal clear to me as a non Trinitarian that the Son and YHWH the Father are two distinct beings.

  I have absolutely no problem with the rest of the canon of Scripture in understanding the Father/Son relationship. It is the corruption of Paganized priests and their doctrine that distorts the mind of the Trinitarian. There is but one God, The Father.. YHWH, whom even the exalted Jesus acknowledges as God (ho. 'Theos). Jesus is NOT Jehovah (YHWH)

  Your explanation please of Psalm 110:1... please (again)

  Hi leavingwt: btw I left quite some time ago, but remain resolute on this doctrine. The Identity of Our Creator, and the "Kingdom" arrangement is essential in our understanding of how the UNIVERSE is governed. In simplistic terms, the Bible is an account of how Rebellion set in and a 1/3 of the heavenly creation by God turned against Universal Sovereignty..... This Earth is slap bang in the middle of it all, with the Arch rival and leader (a.k.a Satan the Devil) in charge of this section of the Universe.

  The chief Son of ho 'Theos.. YHWH (Jehovah) came to this earth to redeem us and resolve the challenge by Satan and his confederates. He, Jesus, proved faithful.. leading the way of redemption.

  It therefore follows that any doctrine, (like the Trinity), that deflects from the Supreme Sovereignty of YHWH is an absolute blasphemy against the Univeral name of YHWH (ho 'Theos) the God of Jesus Christ. So, yes, I believe that the Trinity is a total Heresy by implying that Jah, Jehovah and Jesus the Son are one and the same. It is Satanic and an abomination. And, that is why True Christians reject it as Pagan Apostasy. I am with the JW's and Others on this issue.

  Podo