by brotherdan 127 Replies latest jw friends
Hell...do you ever mock scientologists or Mormons? (Or JWs now...)
A little humor makes the world go 'round. If you can roll with the punches, rather than taking people's digs at your own personal "sacred cows" as a personal affront, you'll have alot less anxiety.
My view of this thread (not the thread topic, for now) is that everyone has behaved as respectfully and mature as possible. This is one of the best threads I've read in my eight or nine months here. Great perspectives, great explanations, great diversity of opinions.
Thank you brotherdan for starting the topic and for endeavoring to be patient and understanding of those at a different place than you spiritually, philosophically, informationally, and in many other ways. As someone not too many months ahead of you in leaving the WT I implore you to hold on to your beliefs loosely as you explore a liberal secular education because if you hold too tightly true learning will be stifled. Read and view the links posted by others in this thread. It's a treasure trove. And if you are able to attend college/university, I highly recommend doing so.
I try not to speak too much about my personal beliefs here because I feel that they are still in a formative stage. I may be one of those who you think disrespects the Bible based on some posts I have made. I assure you that I do not. One can respect the Bible and yet view it as man's biased take on God. How I personally do this I will save for another post.
Don't give up on us, brother. We don't merely agree to disagree here; we cherish the freedom to do so that was denied to us for so long.
IMHO, you have unrealistic expectations for a free society. Pat Condell (below) states quite nicely why many of us are very 'intolerant' of quite a few religious ideas/practices.
It's time we stop trying to convert each other. It's not working. If we are chosen we are chosen. If someone wants to hear about Christ, we tell them. If someone wants to learn about evolution, we tell them. That's it.
I'm all for that...
But most, not all, but most, religions have a mission to save souls and if you aren't right with them, then you're gonna burn in hell, die at Armageddon or miss out on the Rapture or some other fate worse than death.
Personally, I have no interest in converting anyone to what I think. I'm all for freedom of religion - despite what I think about it. I'm also for the freedom from religion - despite what fundies and other zealots have to say in condemning it... but that's the problem, too many religious people think that they can quote a Bible verse and that trumps all arguments, logic and reasoning contrary to their beliefs.
You're on a journey... and you're trying to be fair and intellectually honest. Do us a favor and come back to this thread in a year from now and see if your opinions and thoughts then match what you say now... you may be surprised at yourself. I know I was when I compared what I know now with what I was trying to rationalize then.
I think the trend is to throw EVERYTHING away. The baby with the bathwater.
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However, guys...there is truth out there. Everything is not a strange mystery that no one will understand. It takes more faith to believe in something like evolution than it does to have faith in the Bible.
Okay, do not confuse ex-JW's who decided not to have anything to do with organized religion with ex-JW's that seriously researched the Bible upon exiting the WTS. The first group do not necesarily disbelieve the Bible or in an all-powerful, omnibenevolent God. They just had enough.
The second group are not just bitter and burned.
I belong to the second group. I examined the WTS and did not stop there. If they could so twist the Bible, then I needed to examine the Bible for myself. When I did, it was lacking, it was wrong according to archeaology, it depicted a terrible God, it was similar to other mythologies that it certainl borrowed from.
How can it "take more faith to believe in something like evolution than it does to have faith in the Bible" ? You can make a statement like that, but it needs to be backed up. I could say the exact same thing of any belief system. It takes more faith to believe in evolution than it does to believe in Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Taoism, Voodoo. That is just not so. There really is fossil evidence for evolution. There really is genetic evidence for the age of Man and his spreading out from Africa. There really is DNA commonalities between animals. There is no physical evidence of a global flood or of the exodus. There is only scant evidence that parts of the Bible are based on actuality. That's like saying that GONE WITH THE WIND must be a true story because there was a Civil War and Atlanta did indeed burn.
If Jesus does not exist and did not die for our sins, then we are helpless, hopeless, and lost for all time. I can't imagine feeling like that.
That's just a feeling, not anything based in fact. Why are you switching from logic to emotion? I respect believers that "feel" that the Bible is true and that Jesus died for their sins and admit that the evidence is not there. But you want to have it both ways by saying the proof is there and it just feels right.
As far as saying things that you deem "disrespect" to things holy, many of us cross that line, but it is common to do so in the name of freedom of speech and it has become commonplace to be "disrespectful" in order to have a message heard. I doubt too many of us would interupt a church ceremony to declare that it's all a load of crap. I can agree to an extent that guzzling the wine at a JW Memorial is disrespect, but each of us must choose our limitations on our own.
Thanks Mad Sweeny. I do have my BA in Marketing. I've taken comparative religion, my required sciences (astronomy, chemistry, biology) as well as other extra sociology classes.
I guess I have not been clear, as I have a tendency to do. Please don't think that I think I have all the answers. I am still learning. I don't know where I will be in a year or 10 years from now. Hopefully I will be a stronger more rounded out person. I can't rule anything out. Something that I learned being a JW is that claiming to know everything shows that you know nothing. I truly believe this goes for evolutionists and creationists. I truly believe that this is true wisdom. And should that be something depressing or sad? Never! That is the beauty of this world. We will never know it all. There is more beauty than we could ever imagine.
I don't feel I've painted with a large brush, like Outlaw has said. If you examine the post name it's not "The Bible is TRUE" or "The accuracy of the Bible". It was "Disrespect for the Bible". Maybe the Bible is absolutely false and made up of lies created by men. But this does not mean that we trample on people that believe in it.
This goes for Christians too. We don't need to trample all over evolutionists or agnostic views either. We are all so caught up in converting each other that we lose sight of the beauty of our diversity.
On the way out: The key word in my early posts on this topic was "TREND". I was not accusing anyone. I just noticed the trend. My further posts stated that I have NO problem with people that examine the Bible closely and come to a different decision than Christians. But I've personally noticed the trend to just say "Screw all of this. I'm leaving".
The comment about Jesus was a biblical one and yes, it is a feeling, but also based on biblical logic. We sin, we are condemned, we are bought with a price, without which we would be hopeless. I've read the statements by Carl Sagan about the lack of an after life, and I think that living that way would be depressing for me. However, that doesn't mean that I don't live everyday to the best. I love life. I love the wonder and joy of it. I love the extreme beauty that exists on earth. But I also have a hope for something else when all is said and done here.
Thanks for the advice undercover. I will do just that.
Do us a favor and come back to this thread in a year from now and see if your opinions and thoughts then match what you say now... you may be surprised at yourself. I know I was when I compared what I know now with what I was trying to rationalize then.
That's pretty good advice. I'm sure alot of us can remember saying some of the exact same things brotherdan is saying now when we were first finding our way out. Then we look back and we're like "WTF were we going on about?" lol Good advice.
