The False Prophet Nathan?

by brotherdan 144 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  debator

  Hi wasblind

  the Deut 18 scriptures in question are from verse 18 onwards although you can look at the whole chapter for context. What you are doing is proof texting and taking them out of context.

  Deuteronomy 18:18-22

  18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

  21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of Jehovah does not take place or come true, that is a message Jehovah has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

  The context for all these scriptures is when God speaks words to the prophets directly. This is the creteria for inspiration in the bible so they knew which books were inspired or what was prophetic utterances. Hense why the Bible is called "God's word".

  These scriptures are also pointing towards the messiah and how to recognise him.

  Unless someone is claiming to be specifically inspired of God, actually able to hear God's words directly these scriptures do not apply. Witnesses have never claimed inspiration and have actively denied it.

  The Bible already shows Nathan and the apostles making mistakes among others and not getting called false prophets for it. So I don't have to prove anything the Bible has already proved it for me.

  Wasblind you are just putting impossible creteria on mankind by your reasonings which do not allow for refinement from God's word itself.
• 

  brotherdan

  You still do not confront the fact, Debator, that these have not been merely mistakes. They have been ENFORCED teachings that they have claimed to have come from God. If I said, "based on the Bible it is the Creators promise that 2014 will not pass away before the end of this system of things", I would expect to be called a false prophet.

  You also do not confront the many statements made on who the WT views as false prophets. They have called other men false prophets for merely predicting dates. These men did not say "Thus says Jehovah" either.

  So while you say that we are on the losing side of this issue, you are grasping for straws.

  I'd also like to make a comment on people in the Bible that were called prophets, but as you say, did not prophecy. I believe they did. A prophet MUST prophecy or he is not a prophet. Mariam was a prophetess. I believed that she prophesied. She brought the people the words of God. Maybe much of it was not recorded in the Bible, but if she was called a prophet, she MUST, by definition, prophecy.
• 

  wasblind

  BrotherDan,

  your are truly refreshing
• 

  JWoods

  I'd also like to make a comment on people in the Bible that were called prophets, but as you say, did not prophecy. I believe they did. A prophet MUST prophecy or he is not a prophet. Mariam was a prophetess. I believed that she prophesied. She brought the people the words of God. Maybe much of it was not recorded in the Bible, but if she was called a prophet, she MUST, by definition, prophecy.

  That was exactly what I posted to Debator on your other thread, brotherdan. For what other reason would they be called "prophet"? This is like saying that not all airline pilots actually fly airplanes.

  Of course, nothing matters to him except to apologize for the WTS.

  Can you imagine the illogical position of trying to find "false" prophecy in the bible (i.e. Nathan) to support present day WTBTS false prophecy???

  Or, to claim that the WTBTS did not really make a prophecy after it fails to come true?

  It is insane. But you know, as irritating as he is, maybe some of this will serve you as good practice for debating the real JWs.
• 

  superpunk

  brotherdan,

  In Christianity, the word prophet always means what you say it does, however;

  I'd also like to make a comment on people in the Bible that were called prophets, but as you say, did not prophecy. I believe they did. A prophet MUST prophecy or he is not a prophet. Mariam was a prophetess. I believed that she prophesied. She brought the people the words of God. Maybe much of it was not recorded in the Bible, but if she was called a prophet, she MUST, by definition, prophecy.

  in ancient Hebrew this was not always the case. To be regarded a Jewish "prophet" you did not have to make predictions of any sort. You could be delivering a personal revelation (i.e. "Listen up Israel, this is what Yahweh told me-he's pissed and you need to change), or you could simply be a notable musician/poet. A similar modern-day equivalent would be to call them bards. Jewish tradition cites that there were were about 600,000 recognized "prophets" - certainly not all "prophesied", in the modern sense of the word.

  This doesn't help the JW position at all, since it is obvious from their context that they condemn themselves. I just thought I would clear that up.
• 

  snowbird

  Yeah, prophet in the most basic sense means "one who speaks before" - an individual or group.

  However, if that prophet in the process of "speaking before" an individual or group made predictions that didn't come to pass, he/she was a false prophet.

  No ifs, ands, or buts.

  Syl
• 

  JWoods

  Maybe more to the point is to simply ask if the Watchtower has ever made predictions about the future? LeavingWT has provided more than enough evidence that they certainly have, from their own words, and that none of it has actually come true.
• 

  superpunk

  However, if that prophet in the process of "speaking before" an individual or group made predictions that didn't come to pass, he/she was a false prophet.

  Boom.

  As it relates to what the JWs have done, this is where they damn themselves.

  If they just did the whole "Hey everyone needs to live by God's word and morals and you'll all be happier, that's what God wants you to do or he'll be pissed" - then they could be "prophets" in the sense they try to claim.

  However, since they have made predictions, as JWoods mentioned, they have made themselves into prophets who prophesy - in the modern, Christian sense of the word. When those predictions fail to come true, they may then accurately be regarded as false prophets.

  I just wanted to point out that there are many biblical senses of the word prophet. Not all prophets must "prophesy".
• 

  bennyk

  debator, it would be nice if you would respond to the quotes in my two posts above. Thank you.

  Maybe you could also give some thought to the implications of what you quoted in post 268:

  " 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."
• 

  brotherdan

  superpunk, yeah I agree with you. A prophet doesn't have to make predictions. That's why I was saying that Mariam was a prophetess in that she gave the people the words of God. If she gave them something that God did not say, that would make her a false prophet just as much as if she had predicted a future event that did not happen. Both scenarios would classify her as a false prophet.